Pope rejects a proposal to allow married priests in the Amazon

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by Rain, Feb 12, 2020.

  1. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    That's a clever tactic from Cardinal Muller. He got his interpretation in first and it might be the one to stick. It's also tricky to counter, because who doesn't want reconciliation? Because of the nature of his opponents, it isn't sufficient to be as innocent as a lamb. Sometimes, it is necessary to play them at their own game.
    josephite, Carol55 and AED like this.
  2. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    It wouldn't surprise me if Pope Francis would even take delight in sticking the stiletto into the liberal faction also, just for the hell of it.

    Anyway, as Padraig says, now is the time we need to be most careful and not be deceived into thinking PF has just done a 'Humanae Vitae'.
    Suzanne likes this.
  3. Tanker

    Tanker Archangels

    We don't need apologies. The apology tour is designed to show weakness. PF seems to be carrying on the tour across the world. DJT is not apologizing, Obama did and America weakened.

    America has a lot of bad history but we also have a lot of bad press. Apologizing is not a bad thing, in general. But the Church has nothing to apologize for in evangelizing the world.
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  4. FatimaPilgrim

    FatimaPilgrim Powers

    Bingo, this is it. There are problems, deep rooted problems, and men in our hierarchy who have gone astray and are (hopefully) unknowingly doing Satan's bidding.

    But the solution our Blessed Mother has asked us to participate in is to pray, pray for our Pope, bishops, and priests.

    I pray we are all doing that, and then trusting that God has a plan and if we do our part (pray!) He will do the rest and not let the gates of hell prevail...
  5. FatimaPilgrim

    FatimaPilgrim Powers

    Yes, and to be obedient and do as we're called to do. We're not called to revolt, to overthrow, we're called to pray, fast, and offer reparations
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  6. Mario

    Mario Powers


    What a difference between Cardinal's Mueller's assessment which is one of praise, and that of Cardinal Czerny who points us back to the Synod's final document- indicating he believes all the cards are still on the table. This difference demonstrates that the war for the soul of the Church goes forward unabated.:cry: Mueller cries out, "There is hope for this Pontificate!" while Czerny counters, "You ain't seen nothing yet!" The true test to discover who runs the Vatican will be discovered this very year, or should I say, this spring. For the initial session of the German Synod is done and the results were thoroughly heretical. Even if His Holiness is shifting his stance (I would be pleasantly surprised), actions speak louder than words. In my opinion, immediate steps must be taken to rein in the German bishops. If they choose to abandon the Barque of Peter, may it be done only after Pope Francis has called them irrevocably to task. If there is any sense of hesitation, or if only a slap on the hand is directed at the German heretics, this recent exhortation is simply a bunch of hot air.

    Lord have mercy!
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  7. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    Amazon Exhortation clears way for a demon worshiping “Mass”
    February 12, 2020


    Nothing like a little bait and switch. Yeah, get everyone worked up and worried about deaconesses and married priests, then go full frontal Pachamamamania.

    73. Inculturation elevates and fulfills. Certainly, we should esteem the indigenous mysticism…

    74. Similarly, a relationship with Jesus Christ, true God and true man, liberator and redeemer, is not inimical to the markedly cosmic worldview that characterizes the indigenous peoples…

    78. A process of inculturation involving not only individuals but also peoples demands a respectful and understanding love for those peoples… Let us not be quick to describe as superstition or paganism certain religious practices that arise spontaneously from the life of peoples.

    79. It is possible to take up an indigenous symbol in some way, without necessarily considering it as idolatry. A myth charged with spiritual meaning can be used to advantage and not always considered a pagan error.

    Then Paragraph 81 kicks off a section titled The inculturation of the liturgy… Might want to go have a look at that HERE.

    A great synopsis, short and sweet, a two minute read, from a new blog/blogger “Septina Buccina” HERE … I have only laid out a fraction of what he found, and it is a MUST READ as he has highlighted much more from the document and added much commentary. I beg you to click the link. A quick taste here:

    In Article 74 he reduces the eucharist to some sort of pantheism, says that God is in everything like the earth worshippers believe & ACTUALLY TELLS YOU THAT A RELATIONSHIP WITH CHRIST ISN’T INCOMPATIBLE WITH PAGANISM. Let’s be very, very clear here: the man pretending to be pope says that Christianity and paganism are compatible.

    Ann’s take HERE.

    Hey! Remember when they did all this IN PLAIN SIGHT? THE ANTICHURCH VISIBLE?


    (emphasis in red is mine - SgC)

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  8. AED

    AED Powers

    Today 's Mass readings deal with Solomon's idol worship--going so far as to build shrines to moloch and other pagan idols to please his pagan wives. And punishment followed. God did not think such things were compatible with His worship.
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  9. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    FP, Yes, exactly! +

    Mario, Excellent point!

    Sg, #79 is not good. At a minimum, it adds more confusion.


    This was discussed on the World Over tonight.

    "The Papal Posse, Robert Royal and Father Gerald Murray, are here with in depth analysis of Pope Francis’ Apostolic Exhortation on the Amazon Synod released this week."
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
    Sam likes this.
  10. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Did you watch the World Over? I did. What I got from it was that Fr. Murray seemed very pleased with the Exhortation and that Robert Royal was pleased but with some reservations. Overall, I think they were cautiously optimistic.

    What did you make of it?
  11. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    Dolours, Yes, I did watch it. Father Murray was glad that Pope Francis did not approve married priests or female deacons and Robert Royal was a bit tougher on the letter because he thinks that there is a possibility that since the pope asked everyone to read the final document of the synod that he may have left the door open for the proposals to be implemented. I think that they both stated that it would be better that the pope made things more clear but they also stated that this is how he has been doing things (creating some confusion).

    They both commented on #79 which states, "It is possible to take up an indigenous symbol in some way, without necessarily considering it as idolatry. A myth charged with spiritual meaning can be used to advantage and not always considered a pagan error." and they stated in no way should this have been stated and this opens the door to all sorts of idolatry.

    I also think that they were cautiously optimistic, that is a good way of expressing their overall feelings. They stated that whatever is in the letter itself in black and white is magisterium and the synod's final document is absolutely not magisterium, it is the proposal itself not the pope's answer to the proposal.

    PS- This was a very good and important episode to watch imho and I think I need to watch it again. Father Murray and Robert Royal also said something about how the pope was surprised that so much attention was given to the possibility of married priests because that was not the intention of the synod; they were both cynical about this. I especially liked the segment on China with Cardinal Zen, it was very informative. Things have gotten worse in China for Catholics and Christians in general. Cardinal Zen sounded a little surprised at how fast things are deteriorating. Prayers going up the Chinese people and the world in general, it's scary stuff. +
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  12. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I am a bit lost as to why everyone cannot see this. It reminds me of Worm tounge in the Lord of the Wings.
    Don_D and AED like this.
  13. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    What surprises me, Carol, is that so far none of the usual experts have mentioned what Cardinal Czerney said about lay ministers in his interview with the Jesuit media. That interview, to my mind, throws more light on what Pope Francis was getting at in the Exhortation's reference to secular ecclesia. I think that that's what will lead to lay, specifically female, bishops and cardinals.

    Taylor Marshall has a video doing a far more indepth examination of the Exhortation than we got on the World Over. Maybe he will take a look at it but it's the middle of the night here so I'll have to watch that tomorrow. I'm also not sure whether Dr. Marshall or his guest saw that America interview with Cardinal Czerney which took place later in the day of the Exhortation's release. I also doubt that Robert Royal, Fr. Murray or Raymond Arroyo had seen it.
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  14. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come

    Satan is a master of deception.

    This is what many saw.



    This is what was actually going on.

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  15. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Please, take it down. It is very disturbing.
    AED likes this.
  16. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I think Pope Francis has caved on this exhortation, not because he has turned a new leaf, but because he is a coward. He faced huge resistance over the whole synod affair, much of it probably undetectable by the public. The Pachamamma episode probably horrified many of the liberals themselves simply because they would have regarded it as the uncouth primitive superstition that it is. Know our enemy-they are generally self-regarding 'progressives' who regard themselves as having 'evolved' in Teilhardian fashion to what they describe as a 'new paradigm'. Kasper showed their true opinion of the 'indigenous' when Penton caught him out. They have, you can be sure, nothing but the utmost contempt for Pachamamma, but they might have imagined that the effective rejection of this idol in the exhortation would leave the orthodox so relieved that they would not have the energy to resist some of the other heresies and they might conceivably have sneaked in married priests. The worship of Pacamamma was so over-the-top and unsophisticated that it was going to incur 'war' on the part of the orthodox and was even going to repel the sophists on the liberal side. Right-on intellectuals like Marx and Kasper don't wish to bow to an absurd, primitive pagan idol. They won't even bend the knee to Christ. They might stretch to a well-sculptored 'goddess of reason' in order to virtue-signal their 'superior intelligence', but they wouldn't be caught dead giving credence to the other thing.

    I do not know why the exhortation has turned out to have been such a disappointment for the liberals, but it certainly has and they are letting it be known. Despite our worst imaginings, they got very little.

    #79 might conceivably leave an opening, although it expresses in itself nothing that isn't Church teaching for a very long time. However, when the gun is put to their heads, the liberals don't want Pacamamma (forcing it would only cause rebellion among the ranks of the faithful for little if no gain). They want everything we already see in Protestantism: married clergy, priestesses, homosexually active and married priests and priestesses, divorce, minimisation or complete abolition of the Real Presence and so on. Ultimately, they would want an actively homosexual and married, even transexual, pope.

    I myself think that this non-catastrophe is such thanks to the Grace of God and the intervention of Our Lady. The controversy with Cardinal Sarah (our human locus of Grace, surely, at this time in the Church) and the Pope Emeritus certainly played a human part. The worldwide and quite united displays of disapproval by so many eminent Catholics must have put up quite a challenge to the Bergoglianists. PF recently boasted he was not afraid of schism. That has been shown as bravado, without conviction, I suspect.

    Now, we face the most dangerous period. If, as appears, we have a pusillanimous pope, he is going to be equally impressionable to the outraged disappointment of the liberal side and might choose to give them something to calm them down (not that this calming can ever happen). On that account, all good men in the Church must be ready to head anything like this off at the pass. Bergoglio has blinked, let's keep him down, now.
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  17. padraig

    padraig New Member

    The Holy Father is something of a mystery. There are so many things we simply have to guess at. But there is a definite trajectory there. The Amazon Synod being staged in Rome at huge expense in first place rather than South America. It been financed by Apostate and heretical Germans. It been packed with Modernists.

    Surely the Holy Father knew and it could only have been done with his approval. Yet he put the brakes on at the last minute and did a uturn on what was really his very own vehicle.

    Wheels within wheels within wheels. Like a maze.

    Again , I think people tend to be very, very innocent regarding the Holy Father. His mind operates on a Political Path rather than a Spiritual/ Theological one.

    He never misses a trick

    Last edited: Feb 14, 2020
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  18. lynnfiat

    lynnfiat Fiat Voluntas Tua

    Many may disagree with me, but I believe that Pope Francis is exactly what Our Lord wants for the Church right now. Without Pope Francis, we might not be able to see the weeds that are sprouting up in His garden (the Church). It is so visible now - the separating of the good from the bad
    On Mar. 11, 1995 in Fatima Portugal, Our Lady told Fr. Gobbi (Marian Movement of Priests): "In the Church, the great apostasy which spread throughout the whole world,, will be brought to its completion, the schism will take place through a general alienation from the Gospel and from the true faith." And again She speaks about the Church on Feb. 22, 1996 in Cuzco, Peru, "The powers of hell will not prevail, despite the fact that satan has broken loose, sowing divisions and schisms, these deep wounds which have shattered the unity of the Church, the Mystical Body of my Son Jesus. All the various Christian confessions, which in the course of the centuries have separated themselves from the Catholic Church, represent victory of the Adversary against the unity of the Church, that unity willed by Christ and ardently implored of by the Father. And now the effort is being made to rectify all the errors by walking the path of reconciliation and ecumenism. However, the coming together of all the Christian confessions in the Catholic Church will take place with the triumph of my Immaculate Heart in the world."
    Would we have recognized this schism that Our Lady speaks about without seeing the "weeds" in the garden brought about through the Holy Father? I wonder.
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  19. padraig

    padraig New Member

    If it were not for Pontius Pilate Jesus would never have died on the Cross and we would never have been saved.

    That does not however excuse Pilate or make good what he did.

    This is kinda grasping at straws.
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  20. Sam

    Sam Powers

    It is true that we are seeing the weeds in the Church now with this pontificate, but:

    d “Whoever causes one of these little ones* who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. * Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come! 8
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