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Pope: “It is the Communists Who Think Like Christians”

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, Nov 11, 2016.

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  1. Sunnyveil

    Sunnyveil New Member

    Socialism definition:
    The ONLY thing Pope Francis said was, "It is the Communists who think like Christians."?? I'm sorry but upholding Communism as a philosophical idea is a BIG, BAD statement for any pope to make. Hundreds of millions of people have been murdered because of countries pursuing communistic ideals.
     
  2. Sunnyveil

    Sunnyveil New Member

    It's the right and duty of the Catholic laity to correct the Church hiearchy, including the pope, when they stray from Catholic teaching. Wasn't empowering the laity to help lead the Church part of Vatican II? EWTN is a lay run organization and has the right to report the news as they see fit.

    I really tried to think the best of this pope and repeatedly gave him the benefit of the doubt. He is just naive I thought. He's so holy that he's not worldly. And, of course, the media is misrepresenting what he said to suit their purposes. However, at this point, there are too many things that he has said and done that seem intended to undermine Catholic teaching for me not to question his intentions.
     
    BrianK and SgCatholic like this.
  3. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    And this is why there is mischief making at work here! You are misunderstanding what Pope Francis is trying to say. Many years ago I read the 3 volume Gulag Archipeligo by Alexander Solzhenitsyn and it changed my life in many ways. The true horror of Communism is conveyed in that work so powerfully that the miracle that occurred in Russia in the late 1980s can be seen to be such an amazing one.

    Pope Francis is in no sense defending or supporting that political movement. He is simply pointing out the obvious that the Christian message calls for equality as God sees us all equal. Francis is not prepared to shrug his shoulders and say, it doesn't matter that people suffer and are poor.

    I am someone who is impressed by something the late Enoch Powell once said about capitalism: "I often thank God for the gift of capitalism". That statement shows a good understanding of the capitalist system and the belief that it is almost 'God designed' ! But he was equally aware of its limitations and that it cannot be left to work on its own. I doubt that Pope Francis quite sees capitalism in the same way :) but he knows perfectly well about the horrors of the Communist imposed system. But he knows also that some who have communistic views are sometimes closer to Christian belief than many Christians themselves.
     
    fallen saint and a wee one like this.
  4. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    I should just add that my comment above about 'mischief making' was not directed at you.
     
  5. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Can you explain your argument in light of Catholic social teaching which clearly states that the right to private property is a fundamental right of all.

    Those with communist views believe in the abolition of private property/ownership.

    Irreconcilable points of view.
     
  6. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    You are mistaken, garabandal. SOME people with communistic views think that way. Others think that shared ownership would be preferable in many cases which is a different thing. It's past my bed time now and I'm off to bed....
     
  7. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    If I am mistaken then the dictionary definition of communism is mistaken.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/communism

    Communism - a theory advocating the elimination of private property.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2016
  8. Sunnyveil

    Sunnyveil New Member

    Why doesn't Pope Francis explain clearly what he means? Does he think his audience is a bunch of intellectuals who understand that he's not condoning Communism when he says it's the most Christian of systems.

    Maybe heaven is Communistic: no one really owns anything and we are happy to share all in common. Here on Earth, it is an anti-Christ type of system that always leads to oppression of the masses, the rejection of God, and the concentration of wealth in the hands of a very few.

    So David, why doesn't Pope Francis explain himself?
     
    Byron likes this.
  9. Fatima

    Fatima Powers


    Modern Catholic Dictionary
    by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J. http://www.therealpresence.org/
    COMMUNISM.
    The social doctrine that affirms the community of goods and denies the right to ownership of private property. As analyzed in numerous papal documents since Pope Pius IX in 1846, Communism is based on a philosophy, a theory of history, and a definable strategy or methodology. This philosophy is dialectical materialism, which claims that matter and not spirit, and least of all the infinite Spirit who is God, is the primary reality in the universe; and that material forces in conflict (dialectic) explain all the progress in the world. The Communist theory of history claims that economics is the sole basis of human civilization, making all ethical, religious, philosophical, artistic, social, and political ideas the result of economic conditions. The strategy of Communism is a shifting expediency that defies analysis but has two constants that never really change: massive indoctrination of the people and ruthless suppression of any ideas or institutions that threaten totalitarian control by the Communist Party.
     
    BrianK and Sunnyveil like this.
  10. David Healy

    David Healy St Pio Son

    Communism is very seductive in many ways what with its avowed concern with equality, the sharing of wealth etc. However as with all such ideologies, though 99 percent might at first seem to be unquestionably good the devil it seems lies in the detail. The 1 per cent is where the poison lies and as is the nature of poison it contaminates the other 'good' 99 percent. The poison in the 1 percent lies in the fact that communism's exclusive focus is on this life, this world. It explicitly denies the transcendent, the life and world to come. And it will tolerate no utterance to the contrary. But the biggest lie of all is communism's empty promise that man can have it all, material prosperity, security, plenty if only he deny God. That is the catch.

    One has only to read the history of the Soviet Union and the countries under Communist control to see the hatred of Christ's church which communism tried to annihilate utterly. We know that persecution of Christ's church is persecution of Christ Himself as per Our Lord's words to Saul on the road to Damascus.

    Communism, like Satan says you can have all this, the entire world and all its goods if only you would worship me. Communism is ultimately a lie but like all the most dangerous lies it is cloaked in an apparent goodness and mimics the truth. But Our Lord, Truth itself, always penetrated to the heart of the matter and dealt a devastating blow to the lie when he asked that haunting question: "what does it profit a man if he gain the whole world but lose his soul"?

    Our Lord knew that a life without God, even with every material comfort imaginable, was no life at all. Any system, economic, social, political that promises everything as long as man denies God is a lie.
     
    Byron, sterph, Dolours and 1 other person like this.
  11. a wee one

    a wee one Angels


    So well said, David. Pope Francis in no way supports or promotes communism or the abuses which stem from it. Rather, he applauds the consideration it gives to the underprivileged. Period. That's it. This very point must be placed in the full context of what Pope Francis has conveyed for, ultimately, he is upholding, "the preferrential option for the poor," one of the basic principles of Catholic social teaching. This is the take-away message from the Pope. He neither supports nor promotes communism or the abuses that can come from it, but he applauds the consideration it gives to the underprivileged.

    Here's a grand article which further explicates these ideas: http://www.aggiecatholicblog.org/2012/05/socialism-the-bible-and-the-catholic-church

    God bless Pope Francis.


    Socialism, the Bible and the Catholic Church

    MAY 3, 2012 BY MARCELLEAVE A COMMENT

    [​IMG]


    Q – Could you please discuss what interpretation the church has for Acts 2:44-45 and whether this in any way promotes a socialist economic theory or mindset?


    A – First, let me put up the passage you are referring to.

    “All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their property and possessions and divide them among all according to each one’s need.” (Acts 2:44-45)


    We can see from this passage, and from others (as well as historical evidence), that many (though not all) Christians lived in a form of society where belongings are shared with others in their group. But, one thing we must be very careful not to do is to translate the Bible into a political statement. Socialism is a form of governmental policy, not a statement on how Christians should support one another. Notice there was no government enforcing this form of society, it was purely voluntary. So, I would be careful to call it “socialism” at all – which is state-ownership of property and means of production.

    The Church has never said that one form of government or economic system is the only one we should support. In fact, it warns against the evils that threaten the common good present in all governmental systems. What it does do is proclaim the truths that all governments and economic systems should adhere to. But, any form of government which is compatible with the common good is allowable.

    “Human society can be neither well-ordered nor prosperous unless it has some people invested with legitimate authority to preserve its institutions and to devote themselves as far as is necessary to work and care for the good of all. . . . Every human community needs an authority to govern it. . . . Its role is to ensure as far as is possible the common good of the society.” (CCC 1897-1898)


    The only form of government / economic system the Church has said is incompatible with Christianity is Communism. This is because it does not seek the common good and denies the basic rights of human persons. This is because Communism is an officially atheistic, totalitarian government, and by definition cannot seek what is good for the human person, who has as the greatest good, the search for God. Pope John Paul II wrote:

    “the class struggle in the Marxist sense and militarism have the same root, namely, atheism and contempt for the human person, which place the principle of force above that of reason and law.” (Centisimus Annus, 14)


    The Catechism states:

    “Regimes whose nature is contrary to the natural law, to the public order, and to the fundamental rights of persons cannot achieve the common good of the nations on which they have been imposed.” (CCC 1901)


    and

    “The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modem times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.”Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended..” (CCC 2425)


    While some forms of socialism, republic, and democracy are valid forms of government, they need to guard against seeing man as a mere means of production or as an end to a means.

    One Catholic social justice principle, that is almost unknown by most Catholics, that I think can shed some light on this subject is call subsidiarity. That is, that the lower-level organizations should not have their power usurped by higher-level ones. For instance, the family is the original place of education and that authority of the parents to educate their children should not be taken away by a local school district, state, or federal government. Those higher-level organizations need to support and help the lower-level ones, but not supersede their authority.

    In the same way we are to support one another and the federal government needs to allow us (and support our efforts to do so) and then if it has to, be a safety net for those that “fall through the cracks”.

    So, I would have to answer your question with a no. We cannot see the Bible passage as promoting a kind of socialism. But, it does promote generosity and helping others in whatever ways we need to accomplish that. One way is what is put forward in the passage – giving all we have to be shared with others.
     
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  12. josephite

    josephite Powers

    I spoke to my eldest daughter Angela, last night. She is very busy with 5 children, especially with her baby twin girls! They are to be baptised on the 20th November, The feast of Christ the King! and the close of the year of mercy! A very holy day in my book!!

    I was excited about their baptism especially because of the Holiness of this day but Angela was concerned last night, because unbeknown to me she has been secretly following snippetts of the MoG site when she gets a chance. So her concerns were;
    1] Is the axis of the world really going to shift today[13th November]?
    2] Is the warning about to happen?
    3] will there be a tsunami with that? [Angela and her husband and family live on the east coast near Newcastle]
    4] I haven't started to prep yet!, I've only got one large container of water and I need to get so much stuff!
    5] We will have to make it to high ground and when will I be able to get my twins baptised?
    etc
    etc
    etc.

    I said....... Do not fear.
    Yes the warning is probably close but don't worry about this week and whether God will give you time, because He is a merciful God and He cares about you. And besides Our Holy Father has been inspired by the Holy Spirit to give us an extrodinary year of Mercy!, which concludes on the 20th November, The feast of Christ the King! we are so fortunate that he has given us this time of mercy!

    Heaven respects what Our Holy Father institutes, so let us thank God for Our Holy Father! remember; Jesus said to Peter, What you loose on earth is loosed in heaven and what you bind on earth is bound in heaven!
    The time of Justice will come but I believe it will not come until after the Churches year of Mercy is concluded.

    Now the day after the 20th November is a different matter but I did't say that to Angela.
     
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  13. a wee one

    a wee one Angels


    How very beautiful, Josephite! Tomorrow evening I spend some extended time in Adoration and I'll pray for your Angela, her baby twins and all in her family and yours as you prepare for this most blessed occasion on the Solemnity of Christ the King! Wow!

    For what it's worth, I have seen, time and time again, when someone thinks s/he has figured out the exact date or timing of an event that's been prophesied by Heaven, it usually doesn't happen then. That's just my perspective and my experience for God is a God of Surprises. He and He Alone knows His Dates and Times.

    Josephite thank you for this gem of honor for our Holy Father:

    "And besides Our Holy Father has been inspired by the Holy Spirit to give us an extrodinary year of Mercy!, which concludes on the 20th November, The feast of Christ the King! we are so fortunate that he has given us this time of mercy!

    Heaven respects what Our Holy Father institutes, so let us thank God for Our Holy Father! remember; Jesus said to Peter, What you loose on earth is loosed in heaven and what you bind on earth is bound in heaven!"

    I wish Joe was here to repond to your reply to him. His has his irreplaceable, very special gift of expressing and connecting, far and above what I can do. Nevertheless, congratulations to you and your extended family.
     
    josephite likes this.
  14. garabandal

    garabandal Powers


    Communism is a Godless philosophy inspired by the evil one.

    The Red Dragon.

    "Communists think like Christians" is the most absurd of oxymoron's.
     
    DeGaulle likes this.
  15. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    As I said, the Pope is not justifying the atheistic, forced system that resulted in such horrors in Russia and elsewhere. The article that 'wee one' has just posted should clarify things to those who are genuinely surprised by what Francis said.

    And in response to 'Sunnyveil', asking why does Pope Francis not speak more clearly. He actually speaks very clearly but those who have already decided he is not a good man will always try to interpret his words negatively. That is their choice. I copy again the words he said, highlighting the only words that the critics have seized on. I repeat that Francis is not supporting the Communist system (with a capital 'C'). He is referring to the 'idealists' who want to remove poverty through shared ownership.
    “It it has been said many times and my response has always been that, if anything, it is the communists who think like Christians. Christ spoke of a society where the poor, the weak and the marginalized have the right to decide. Not demagogues, not Barabbas, but the people, the poor, whether they have faith in a transcendent God or not. It is they who must help to achieve equality and freedom".
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
  16. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    All perfectly true. Pope Francis would agree with all this.
     
  17. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    No, garabandal, the Pope's words were: "communists who think like Christians"
     
    LittleVoice likes this.
  18. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    Are you Joe Crozier in disguise?
    You seem to be talking about him and praising him constantly and 'how unfair it is that he has been booted from the forum' :sneaky:
     
    DeGaulle likes this.
  19. DeGaulle

    DeGaulle Powers

    "It is the Communists who think like Christians." This is what he said. To leave out the first two words changes the meaning. There are probably some communists who think like Christians, but I'd wager there are very few. The Pope's statement is most readily interpreted as 'only the Communists think like Christians'. This is not only completely untrue, it is a gross insult to their hundreds of millions of victims, many of them current and many of them true martyrs.

    Then again, Pope Francis is the Pope of insult, so he is being consistent.

    He is also directly opposing himself to the words of Our Lady of Fatima. I know who I'm going to put my trust in.

    [The history of Communism shows that it is in the 99% that the poison lies. That is why it has been so successful at gaining power and so murderous. Lenin. Stalin. Mao. Pol Pot. Castro. Kim Jong-un. Chavez. And all viciously atheistic. Where are all these good guys?]

    [The fundamental difference between Christianity and Communism is that Christ encourages us to voluntarily share with our neighbour. The Communist principle is to force one to share with one's neighbour. This is a distortion of the Golden Rule and it is satanic. It can seem attractive on the surface like much that comes from the devil, but it is Hell beneath. Don't fall for it].
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
    Dolours likes this.
  20. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    The thing is davidtlig, Pope Francis often does himself and the Church a huge disservice in throwing out language that is not well defined and leaves it up to the reader to interpret what is to be construed. At the very least, it is a poor way to communicate and causes great confusion. When it is done so often he opens himself up to criticism and often he goes so far on the cutting edge of Catholic teachings that he lends himself to what we see written about him. Then we have our Pope showing favor towards some of the most liberal/progressive bishops and cardinals who have spoken even more recklessly then himself that he leaves little doubt that he has a mindset to the far left in many thoughts of his own. Add this all up and it is not hard to see we have a very liberal mindset Holy Father as it pertains to several clearly defined teachings of the Church. Either way, he often leaves it up to the reader to question and discern what he means.
     
    DivineMercy likes this.
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