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Pope has destroyed Fatima and the messages of Our Lady - Socci

Discussion in 'Marian Apparitions' started by Blizzard, May 15, 2017.

  1. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    I posted this interview to a serious vaticanist Saverio Gaeta (look him up) on the Fatima thread but this part is also pertinent here:

    Let us remain at a papal journey, this time not towards Fatima but returning from Fatima. I am referring to the journey of Pope Francis last Saturday and to his statements on Medjugorje. You in the past also worked on these other alleged apparitions, how do you evaluate the words of Bergoglio?

    The Pope said that he does not like Our Lady as the “head of the telegraph office that every day sends a message at a specific hour”. I start from the fact that the Pope has stated that these are personal opinions, and I would like to respond to these, which are not Magisterium. Well, in Medjugorje Our Lady from 1987 comes to give one message per month, previously (1984 to 1987) she used to give one message per week. The total per today is 515 messages, not the seven thousand and more of which the bishop of Mostar talks about including also the alleged apparitions to the individual visionaries during which Our Lady gives no messages but prays. I note that in San Nicolas, in Argentina, Our Lady has given so far 4,250 messages and she continues to give more. Yet these apparitions have been officially recognized by the local bishop. Here it would not be a “postman Our Lady” but a “telegraph Our Lady”… I love to think that if Our Lady is the mother, she acts like the other mothers: insistently lovingly knocks on the shoulder of the son to ask him to listen to her advices and to redeem himself.

    This is not the Magisterium, but these statements of Pope Francis could negatively affect the opinion of the faithful on Medjugorje…

    I do not know if it is due to the declarations of the Pope or to the economic crisis, but the fact is that in recent years there has been a significant decrease of the visits in the shrine of Medjugorje. I believe that the pilgrims need a word of clarity that finally allows to have faith in the fact that in that place there has been the intervention of Mary. Obviously if the Pope reveals doubts, the pilgrim who feels the desire to go to a Marian Shrine perhaps prefer to go not to Medjugorje but elsewhere. The fact remains that the testimonies of conversion occurred in Medjugorje are infinitely greater than those that occurred in other sanctuaries. This will also mean something.

    Is there the risk that some presumed messages of Medjugorje go against the magisterium of the Church? For example, in one of these Our Lady asks to celebrate her birthday on the 5 August, while the Church commemorates the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin on the 8 September …

    Unfortunately, the Vatican has never done a critical diligent work on all the texts of the apparitions, which have been transcribed in a very empirical way, and therefore difficult to be verified. I happened to read some of them that translated in English or translated in Italian stated different things. The problem is mainly linked to the messages given in the initial period to a woman – Jelena Vasilj – which was not even a visionary, but had interior locutions. However, the visionaries acquired these responses and have made them their own, perhaps reporting the content in a partial or incorrect manner.

    According to you are there points of contact between Fatima and Medjugorje?

    In an alleged recent message of Medjugorje Our Lady claimed to be coming to complete what began at Fatima. Assuming that it is a true message, this is the answer. From my point of view, all Marian apparitions are tiles of a mosaic. Put on the table before the work of the artist, they are rather dull. But once embedded in a work of art, they assume a meaning. The meaning that I read in the various apparitions, is the call of Our Lady to conversion towards her Son Jesus to avoid the self-destruction of the world.

    http://www.interris.it/en/2017/05/15/119887/slap-en/the-mysteries-from-fatima-to-medjugorje.html
     
    Byron likes this.
  2. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    There are binding judgements from the local bishop, not "accusations."

    It doesn't matter how many "conversions" or feel-good moments occur at Medjugorje. The Devil will tolerate all of that if he can sow disobedience towards the Church. And that is exactly what is happening. I don't think this level of deception is merely possible by human means. There is a preternatural, demonic side to Medjugorje. That's why I'll never set foot in the place.

    The sole guide and final authority regarding the supernatural veracity of Medjugorje is first the local bishop and then, ultimately, the Vatican.
     
    Clare A and Dolours like this.
  3. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I'm glad that the Pope is gradually getting the message across that Medjugorje is not worthy of belief. It looks to me like he's preparing people for a negative decision - letting them down gently.

    Nothing would convince me to visit there. The story of the monk and the nun as well as the escalation of tensions between the Franciscans and the diocesan authorities should have been enough of a warning sign that all was not as it should be. How many conversions would it take to balance out those negative fruits? And then there's the matter of the visionaries living off the apparitions, not to mention Our Lady supposedly looking like she was about to drop the baby Jesus.

    The Church shouldn't have dilly dallied over this for so long. If the Commission believes that the original apparitions had merit but the the visionaries are exploiting them and that the ongoing claims of apparitions are not worthy of belief, that message should be sent out loud and clear. The adult behaviour of Melanie from LaSalette didn't negate the Church's original approval of the apparitions there. Has any local Bishop ever officially approved the apparitions? I don't believe so. Bishops from outside the diocese send mixed messages about it but those bishops wouldn't take kindly to having their own authority undermined by brother bishops from outside their dioceses.

    It's past time for the Church to give a clear ruling on this. Whatever the ruling, I will have serious doubts that Our Lady ever appeared there and, short of Our Lady herself telling me otherwise, I will never believe that the alleged ongoing apparitions are genuine. I hate to see St. Padre Pio being dragged into this controversy. He didn't travel around the world making a living off the stigmata. I believe that dragging him into this is an insult to the Saint.
     
    Clare A likes this.
  4. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    The only thing is many stories (and even full reports from the local bishop and other church authorities) of disobedience and diabolical disorientation were circulated around about Padre Pio and his capuchin brothers. That is why I don't think you can take the negative things about Medjugore at face value.
     
    Fatima, Byron and Astrolabe like this.
  5. SteveD

    SteveD Angels

    On the flight back from Fatima

    As the question-and-answer session was coming to a close, a Portuguese journalist was given the opportunity for a final question. He asked the Holy Father to comment on the fact that in Portugal, an overwhelmingly Catholic country, the political trend is favorable to recognition of same-sex marriage, acceptance of abortion, and now perhaps even euthanasia. Here is the Pope’s reply:

    I think it’s a political problem. And that also the Catholic conscience isn’t a catholic one of total belonging to the Church and that behind that there isn’t a nuanced catechesis, a human catechesis. That is, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is an example of what is a serious and nuanced thing. I think that there is a lack of formation and also of culture. Because it’s curious, in some other regions, I think of the south of Italy, some in Latin America, they are very Catholic but they are anti-clerical and ‘priest-eaters’, that … there is a phenomenon that exists. It concerns me. That’s why I tell priests, you will have read it, to flee from clericalism because clericalism distances people. May they flee from clericalism and I add: it’s a plague in the Church. But here there is a work also of catechesis, of raising awareness, of dialogue, also of human values.

    As my mother would have said 'Clear as mud'!
     
  6. Byron

    Byron Principalities

    What in heavens did Pope Francis say?
     
  7. CrewDog

    CrewDog Guest

    When I was a Staff Weenie in Korea, a reply like PF's at a staff meeting or during a briefing would be described as:
    When Ya don't have the answer or the answer is not what anybody wants to hear, Ya baffle them with BS! :eek:
    Still lots of time for SHTF 2017 to occur!! :(

    GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!
     
    Blizzard and AED like this.
  8. padraig

    padraig New Member

     
  9. AED

    AED Powers

    Reminds me of CS Lewis That Hideous Strentgth. Everyone in the N.I.C.E. talked that way. And they were not heroes.
     
  10. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    A very confused Pope we have. We must continue to pray for him.
     
  11. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    Is he confused, or is he trying to confuse?
     
  12. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    Phil Lawler has written about this in the following article -

    http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/the-city-gates.cfm?id=1452

    And here’s what the Pope didn’t say
    By Phil Lawler (bio - articles - email) | May 15, 2017

    During his latest in-flight press conference, on his return flight from Portugal, Pope Francis made important statements on several hot topics: Medjugorje, sexual abuse, his meeting with President Trump, the prospects for regularization of the Society of St. Pius X. Those comments have deservedly commanded top billing in news coverage of the interview. So you might have missed the Pope’s response to another hot-button issue.

    As the question-and-answer session was coming to a close, a Portuguese journalist was given the opportunity for a final question. He asked the Holy Father to comment on the fact that in Portugal, an overwhelmingly Catholic country, the political trend is favorable to recognition of same-sex marriage, acceptance of abortion, and now perhaps even euthanasia. Here is the Pope’s reply:

    I think it’s a political problem. And that also the Catholic conscience isn’t a catholic one of total belonging to the Church and that behind that there isn’t a nuanced catechesis, a human catechesis. That is, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is an example of what is a serious and nuanced thing. I think that there is a lack of formation and also of culture. Because it’s curious, in some other regions, I think of the south of Italy, some in Latin America, they are very Catholic but they are anti-clerical and ‘priest-eaters’, that … there is a phenomenon that exists. It concerns me. That’s why I tell priests, you will have read it, to flee from clericalism because clericalism distances people. May they flee from clericalism and I add: it’s a plague in the Church. But here there is a work also of catechesis, of raising awareness, of dialogue, also of human values.

    So, given an opportunity to comment on the collapse of Catholic moral principles in a Catholic society—it could easily be described as a softball question—the Pope said... What?

    Read that answer again, and tell me what the Pope thinks of Catholics who, in public life, betray Catholic principles. Good luck.




    [​IMG]
     
    Blizzard likes this.
  13. Mary's child

    Mary's child Principalities

    Huh!?! What kind of answer is this. Ugh...:(:eek:(n). Lord have mercy, our Pope is in need of it, praying for strength and courage for all here.
     
    AED likes this.
  14. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come


    I think he´s dodging the question. Why?

    Best-case scenario: the Vatican these days really doesn´t care about these issues, they are not relevant and should be avoided (why did that pesky reporter have to ask them?).

    Worst-case scenario: the Vatican, in line with the UN, thinks they should be adopted. Abortion, contraception, gay marriage, euthanasia are not bad things after all as they lead to population control.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come

    Can you imagine if Pope John Paul had been asked the same questions?

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Adoremus

    Adoremus Archangels

    I don't think he's one bit confused, I think he simply says anything he can in order to avoid directly answering the question.
     
    Mary's child and SgCatholic like this.
  17. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    At least today the pope has been clear. Wish he had said sth like this on the plain but the man is human, definitely needs our prayers so he is not further carried away by the prevailing progressive mainstream thinking inside and outside the Church, aka as the prevailing 'mob' mentality, which is a real power on earth.

    Pope: No research justifies the destruction of human embryos
    https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/05/18/pope-no-research-justifies-destruction-human-embryos/

    “Some branches of research, in fact, utilize human embryos, inevitably causing their destruction,” the pope said. “But we know that no ends, even noble in themselves, such as a predicted utility for science, for other human beings or for society, can justify the destruction of human embryos.”

    ---

    Thanks to God he is not falling into "in some cases", and may he revisit the issue of the remarried divorcees in the same line of thought. What is intrinsically evil cannot be justified by the noblest of means.
     
  18. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    Once again the Pope speaks. This time on doctrine. Clear as mud, once again. Now I don't know what world our pope is talking about, BUT if he defines doctrines as the church has always understood them to be, we would be best of friends, like I felt I was with all the previous popes in my life time. This pope came into office with some of his first words, "I need to stir things up" and since then has just did this on church doctrines and then intentionally leaves with so much ambiguity that high level Cardinals at the Vatican have to ask for clarity in a Dubia, to which he has yet to respond to well after a year later. If, as he say's "true doctrine units and ideology divides" then how come he can't see that what he is doing is dividing the Church with false ideologies that he can't point to anywhere in the church history of councils and papal teachings what he is proposing? Hmmmm

    Pope Francis: doctrine unites, ideology divides
    [​IMG]
    Pope Francis delivers the homily at the daily Mass at the Casa Santa Marta.

    19/05/2017 15:46
    SHARE:


    (Vatican Radio) True doctrine unites; ideology divides. That was the message of Pope Francis in the homily at the morning Mass at the Casa Santa Marta on Friday.

    The Pope based his reflections on the so-called Council of Jerusalem which, around the year 49 A.D., decided that gentile converts to Christianity would not have to be circumcised.

    The Holy Father was commenting on the First Reading, from the Acts of the Apostles. He noted that even in the first Christian community “there were jealousies, power struggles, a certain deviousness that wanted to profit from and to buy power.” There are always problems, he said: “We are human, we are sinners” and there are difficulties, even in the Church. But being sinners leads to humility and to drawing close to the Lord, as Saviour who saves us from our sins. With regard to the gentiles who the Spirit called to become Christians, the Holy Father recalled that, in the reading, the apostles and the elders chose several people to go to Antioch together with Paul and Barnabas. The reading describes two different kinds of people: those who had “forceful discussions” but with “a good spirit,” on the one hand; and those who “sowed confusion”:

    “The group of the apostles who want to discuss the problem, and the others who go and create problems. They divide, they divide the Church, they say that what the Apostles preached is not what Jesus said, that it is not the truth.”

    The apostles discussed the situation among themselves, and in the end came to an agreement:

    “But it is not a political agreement; it is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that leads them to say: no things, no necessities. Only those who say: don’t eat meat at the time, meat sacrificed to idols, because that was communion with the idols; abstain from blood, from animals that were strangled, and from illegitimate unions.”

    The Pope pointed to the “liberty of the Spirit” that leads to agreement: so, he said, the gentiles were allowed to enter the Church without having to undergo circumcision. It was at the heart of the “first Council” of the Church: the Holy Spirit and they, the Pope with the Bishops, all together,” gathered together in order “to clarify the doctrine;” and later, through the centuries – as at Ephesus or at Vatican II – because “it is a duty of the Church to clarify the doctrine,” so that “what Jesus said in the Gospels, what is the Spirit of the Gospels, would be understood well”:

    “But there were always people who without any commission go out to disturb the Christian community with speeches that upset souls: ‘Eh, no, someone who says that is a heretic, you can’t say this, or that; this is the doctrine of the Church.’ And they are fanatics of things that are not clear, like those fanatics who go there sowing weeds in order to divide the Christian community. And this is the problem: when the doctrine of the Church, that which comes from the Gospel, that which the Holy Spirit inspires – because Jesus said, “He will teach us and remind you of all that I have taught’ – [when] that doctrine becomes an ideology. And this is the great error of those people.”

    These individuals, the Pope explained, “were not believers, they were ideologized,” they had an ideology that closed the heart to the work of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles, on the other hand, certainly discussed things forcefully, but they were not ideologized: “They had hearts open to what the Holy Spirit said. And after the discussion ‘it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us.’”

    Pope Francis’ final exhortation was to not be afraid in the face “of the opinions of the ideologues of doctrine.” The Church, he concluded, has “its proper Magisterium, the Magisterium of the Pope, of the Bishops, of the Councils,” and we must go along the path “that comes from the preaching of Jesus, and from the teaching and assistance of the Holy Spirit,” which is “always open, always free,” because “doctrine unites, the Councils unite the Christian community, while, on the other hand, “ideology divides.”
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2017
  19. MMM

    MMM Principalities

    I hope I can use this answer the next time someone asks me about these things. :LOL:

    What do you think of same sex marriage, abortion and euthanasia?

    My stance is the Catholic stance which states "it a political problem and there isn't a nuanced catechesis and a lack of formation, don't forget the priest-eaters from south of Italy and Latin America, they concern me so priests have to read it and should flee from the plague of clericalism and there is a work of awareness, dialogue and human values" BOOM! Nailed it!!:ROFLMAO:
     
    AED likes this.
  20. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    This keeps being said of Pope Francis and is 100% false. His readiness to answer almost any question in his plane interviews and elsewhere has become legendary. The problem for the criticis is that they don't like his answers. Not liking the answers includes not understanding what he is saying but Francis is doing his best to answer every question.
     

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