Pope Francis

Same, when asked why I wouldn't follow the pope's mandate, my response is "he isn't the highest authority that I owe obedience to."

 

Yes I love Professor Stine. He was well ahead of the game when it comes to Papa Frankie years ago.But he has had his problems, not so long ago a hurricane hit his down and did a lot of damage. Also he seems to be in constant poor health for such a young married man.

Prayers, poor man.

 

I also tell people that although as Pope he is the head of the Church, I am not required to obey his personal opinions. All of this nonsense is just that, his personal opinions. He does NOT have the authority to change Jesus teachings, or any Doctrine of the Catholic Church.

 

And yet millions followed the man’s mandate and are now dead or experiencing devastating side effects which may lead to death.

Let’s hope he can explain that when he comes before the Just Judge.

But I doubt it.

 

I understand that over 1000 Bishops, Archbishops and Cardinals have so far spoken out against his recent wretched Document. That's only thus far. I don't believe this has ever happened before in the entire history of the Church.

This is something people need to be thinking and praying about, asking themselves the very simple question:

WHY?

1 Corinthians 14:33

For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,

"I want to tell you something. What is it that I expect as a consequence of World Youth Day? I want a mess. We knew that in Rio there would be great disorder, but I want trouble in the dioceses!" he said, speaking off the cuff in his native Spanish. "I want to see the church get closer to the people. I want to get rid of clericalism, the mundane, this closing ourselves off within ourselves, in our parishes, schools or structures. Because these need to get out!"


Papa Frankie, World Youth Day

https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/distinctly-catholic/pope-i-want-mess

 

So true! And yet many persons who do not know their faith, and do not understand that there COULD BE a BAD Pope, and has been many times in 2000 years, will be led astray. Jesus warned us of this. Anyone who truly wants the Truth will be helped by Heaven and find it. They will accept the good and reject the bad (and know exactly what power a Pope does have). Unfortunately, most Catholics are badly Catechized, and many I've met have no interest in learning their faith any deeper. These I believe are the luke warm that will not survive.....

 

That's a fascinating read....

 

Along this line of thought, there is so very much to learn, to read, to pray over. And some things meant to help one may not help another, so praying and discerning is so very necessary. That's why the "big" stars with "catholic empires" bother me.....they don't appear to give people a chance to think for themselves, and this leads to a sort of lethargy of the mind.

It occurred to me that the story of St. Peter getting out of the boat, walking on the water towards Christ was relevant to what happened over these last days. The African Bishops, rather than being afraid and sinking together lifted up their hands to reach for Christ's and they came out in full force. Some others started sinking, and perhaps thrashing about. A test, and one not to forget for later.....When gripped by fear or panic, remember there's a Hand there waiting to pull you back up; and He will do so if you let go of the fear and reach out in trust.

 

My view on blessing "same-sex couples". It is anathema to me. Apart from once or perhaps twice, I have refrained from criticising Pope Francis. It is my view that even if a pope were to be an Anti-Christ, one still owes him the respect of the Office. I am not saying Pope Francis is an Anti-Christ.

I have heard that to be in full communion with the Pope, one needs to submit one's intellect and will to him. I presume that is what Fr. Mark Goring is doing. Alright, we look stupid and ridiculous doing this - as if we are jumping through hoops and digging deeper into a hole while Popesplaining. But St. Paul did say that God uses the foolish to confound the wise.

The problem is that while one can submit our intellect and will to the Pope in matters of Faith and Morals, one may still not be able to give assent to something like Fiduccia suplicans - because the little matter of our conscience (hopefully well formed) does not allow it. And as Padraig pointed out, St. Thomas Aquinas said if one goes against our conscience, then we have lost our soul.

On the matter of the blessing itself, one of the comments I came across on youtube said that the problem is this: that children do not read such documents (Fiduccia supplicans). They learn by what they see. And when they see two same-sex people holding hands and being blessed by a priest, they are in fact being corrupted into forming a belief that such "same-sex couples" are being condoned and blessed by the Church in their choice of sinful life or "lifestyle", their behaviour being normalised.

So, no, blessing of "same-sex couples" is an abomination. And of course this is to say nothing of "couples" in other "irregular" relationships.

This is perhaps a very harsh position to adopt. Why so? Take most people of homosexual inclination. They perhaps cannot help their proclivity to same-sex attraction. To tell them that they must live chaste lives means for most of them that they will never be able to find a life partner. Unless of course they marry a partner of the opposite sex. But that may be an injustice on the other partner unless they are aware of their partner's homosexuality and nevertheless acquiesce to marriage. So in effect when one tells them to live chastely, or else they will not inherit the Kingdom of God (St. Paul), we are saying to most of them that they must live out their lives without fulfilling a very deep desire which most people have to share their lives with a partner.

The video garabandal posted was quite a good discussion (Larry Schapps?). However, there was some liberal protestant influence towards the end on tolerance of homosexuality and a "need" in the Church for debate on a Christian Anthropology. A Christian understanding of what it is to be a human person. But I suspect it is just such a high falootin philosophical discussion which is behind the development of Fiduccia suplicans.

However, I'm afraid the only options that should be available are: 'conversion therapy' or picking up one's Cross and following Jesus. I myself am separated from my wife. But I have to live chastely. I also have to avoid having girlfriends even for company, so that I avoid the occasions of sin and risk of acting on temptations. If I did succumb to such temptations, I could never imagine in a million years going to ask a priest for a blessing with my girlfriend. Yes, it is a horrible way to have to live, but live it I must. It's no good devising nice words and phrases to say that "in the field hospital of life and in the concrete and lived realities of people's lives, mercy is paramount and blessings of irregular situations desireable".

But if it comes to going into schism, I am afraid I will have to go with the Fr. Mark approach. I just heard Taylor Marshall quote Pope Pius XII who said that there are 3 ways to leave the Catholic Church: Heresy, Apostacy, Schism.

One could say that Pope Francis is preaching heresy and therefore it is he who has left the Church. But can one be sure? David L Gray said in his video that Schism was in fact a good thing - that the Church needs to get smaller and holier. But what if one leaves in Schism, only to find that "we have the Faith" but they have not just the buildings but the Pope as well? And where Peter is, there is The Church.

In one of his videos Fr. Mark says that if one criticises the Pope too much, one could "end up in hell". In another place he quotes Pope Francis' saying that the Church is for everyone. "Toto, toto, toto". Fr. Mark also says that if we do not minister to all then we (or at least priests ?) will go to hell.

You see how this is becoming a high stakes enterprise!

Fr. Thaddeus Doyle of God's Cottage youtuble channel says that Taylor Marshall's comments on Pope Francis are tantamount to slander. He says that it may even be a sin against the Holy Spirit. That if he (Taylor) is not aware of it, then why not? Michael Lofton says that many who criticise Pope Francis are commiting slander. He goes on to point out that St. Paul doesn't only say that fornicaters, adulterers, idolaters will not inherit the Kingdom of God; but that the list also includes slanderers. So you see what a mess we are in. High stakes. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. It's time to pick a side.

 

Very good summary of all the confusion we are all trying to work through.

 

Well I don't want to argue about it. Each of us must follow our own consciences. But I am curious, where did you read that we have to, 'Submit one's intellect and will ', to the Pope? I never recall reading or hearing of such a thing before ?

Perhaps you might find this little article helpful:

https://www.catholic365.com/article/12810/do-we-have-to-obey-the-pope.html

'Here’s an interesting question: Are Catholics required to accept everything the Pope says?



On the one hand, there are people who call themselves Catholic who have ignored and rejected papal teachings for decades. They claim a person’s individual feelings about an issue are all that matter. Therefore, whatever a person feels is right, must be right. So, whenever the Pope presents a particular teaching, especially on incendiary topics such as abortion, marriage, euthanasia, etc., these Catholics shove their fingers in their ears and shout, “La la la! I can’t hear you!” In other words, they claim it’s perfectly OK to ignore any and all statements from the Pope that they don’t agree with.



On the other hand, there are other Catholics who say we must accept and obey all pronouncements from the Pope. They cite the Church’s teaching on “Papal Infallibility,” and warn that if anyone disagrees with the head of Jesus’ Church, then his or her eternal soul is in jeopardy.



It all depends on how we understand the teaching on Papal Infallibility. Some folks think this means the Pope, as a person, is infallible. Since he is the Supreme Pontiff, the leader of the Church founded by Jesus Himself, it is impossible for him to think, say, or do anything that is incorrect. If the Pope declares it is going to rain a week from Thursday, then you don’t have to watch the weather report because it IS going to rain a week from Thursday.



Or they think Infallibility means the Pope is morally perfect. In other words, he is not capable of committing a sin. These people are shocked when they discover the Pope goes to Confession on a regular basis. “Why?” they ask. “What’s he got to confess?”



The Church’s teaching on Papal Infallibility actually is very narrowly defined. And the one thing it does NOT mean is that the Pope himself is morally perfect and incapable of making an error. (If that were the case, a lot of major league teams would be begging the Pope to play shortstop for them.)



The doctrine of Papal Infallibility is explained by the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which says the pope is protected from error when he “proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals” (CCC 891).



The key is that the subject must deal only with faith or morals. The Pope cannot claim to make infallible proclamations about the weather forecast, or the upcoming NFL season, or which wine is proper to serve with hot dogs and potato salad. (Answer: wine in a box.)



More than anything else, the doctrine of Papal Infallibility prevents the Pope from making an erroneous claim about faith or morals. You see, the Church has been teaching the core truths of the Gospel, handed down by Jesus and the apostles, for 2,000 consecutive years now. The basic claims of Christianity have not been altered since Day One, and no Pope has ever been empowered to make fundamental changes.



Popes have made infallible proclamations only twice in the past two centuries, in 1854 (the Immaculate Conception) and 1950 (the Assumption of Mary). So, obviously, Papal Infallibility is not used very often.



Therefore, the answer to our original question is no, Catholics are not required to accept everything the Pope says. But since he is the leader of Jesus’ Church on earth, Catholics do owe him a high level of respect. If the Pope makes a statement about some aspect of religious practice, politics, or culture that we consider incorrect, we need to make sure our disagreement is polite and respectful.



And if the Pope says it’s going to rain a week from Thursday, we should bring an umbrella that day. I mean, c’mon, he’s the Pope. He just might have some inside information.'

 

Also if a Pope says or orders something that contradicts every other Pope had said does that mean we must believe or obey him as Pope Francis has done? Because clearly if Pope Francis is right then all the other Popes are wrong. If on the other hand all the other Popes were wrong and Pope Francis is the only Pope who got it right, if we obeyed Pope Francis we would be disobeying all the other Popes.

Popes have to keep what we call the Deposit of the Faith. Which is to say the Truths of the Faith. If a Pope contradicts the Deposit of the Faith he is clearly wrong to do so and we would be wrong to obey him. God did not intend that we be turned into robots .

The Catholic Church holds that we must obey our own conscience first. As St Cardinal John Henry Newman said, 'I will drink to the Pope but my conscience first!.

https://www.cathlogic.com/post/2017...-dangerous-understanding-of-catholic-morality

Gaudium et Spes states, “But in their manner of acting, spouses should be aware that they cannot proceed arbitrarily, but must always be governed according to a conscience dutifully conformed to the divine law itself, and should be submissive toward the Church's teaching office, which authentically interprets that law in the light of the Gospel” (Gaudium et Spes, #50, emphasis added).

 

Ummm yeah, I thought we only subject our intellect and will to God alone.

Spiritual Communion

ETERNAL FATHER! I offer up to Thee my intellect, that it may learn to know Thee alone. Sweetest Jesus! I offer up to Thee my memory, that it may remember Thee alone. Holy Ghost, Spirit of charity! I offer up to Thee my will, that Thou mayest enkindle and warm it by Thy Divine love. Adorn my soul with Thy seven gifts, and let me become Thy pure temple. Fill me with Thy grace, and prepare my heart to receive spiritually my God.

Jesus, my God! as my sins render me unworthy to receive Thee into my heart, do Thou receive me into Thine, and unite me so perfectly with It that nothing may ever be able to separate me even for a moment from Thee. Engulf my misery and my nothingness in the abyss of Thy mercy, that I, changed into Thee, may henceforth live only for Thee, by Thee, and in Thee. Come, therefore, Thou, my only satisfaction, come to take possession of this heart, which belongs to Thee, and cannot live one moment without Thee.

 

Yes, I think a lot of the damage that is caused at the moment is because many Catholics misunderstand the role of a Pope.

 

I think the lightning strike is a sign, and no coincidence. Unbelievable how both the halo and keys were blown off. Lord have mercy!

 

It was Papa Frankie's birthday too. What are the odds they must be billions and billion to one.

 

I have been wondering if this means that we about to have a new Pope very soon?



May he be a good and Holy and Wise man, blessed by all God's Grace. and may the Good God have mercy on the poor wretch who presently may be called before The Judgement Seat.

Acts 12

'On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people. They shouted, "This is the voice of a god, not of a man." Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.'

 

I think in this matter it is very easy to follow our conscience still, while not slandering the pope. We simply DON'T be in irregular unions of any kind or try to ask our priests to bless them. And we don't tell anyone in an irregular union to go get a blessing. And when our opinion is asked, we tell them what we believe to be the truth. And we continue to pray for Pope Francis and all our prelates.

I've been doing something similar to this for many years concerning natural family planning. I don't believe it is right to actively try to avoid conceiving children, no matter how "naturally" you go about it, or how much you think you're making a responsible decision, because God is infinitely wiser than us and knows whether to make a new person or not. The recent popes say it's ok but I disagree and don't do it. Annulments are another thing that have become very lax and easily handed out (even if they take a long time), to the point where I believe it's being done way too much and has whittled away at the understanding of divorce being wrong. So again, popes have been allowing something my conscience tells me isn't right.

But it is one thing to be convinced one must avoid something they're being told is ok, and another thing entirely to be up in arms against others being able to do something you think they shouldn't be allowed to do. I think maybe that's where some are drawing the line. Is it our duty to tell people the pope is awful to allow something we believe is wrong? Is it our duty to rant about it? Probably not. We should definitely speak the truth when asked, and live the truth with our own lives. I believe we should let the bishops and priests do the teaching and correcting, while we support them with our prayers and fasting.

 

Have you read the "The Dialogue?"