Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by Mark Dohle, Mar 14, 2017.
Its like an old friend has returned.
Dear oh dear! We're back to square one and Pope Francis challenging us to think about Catholics living in adulterous and same sex unions. Well, we don't need to Pope to remind us because we have it shoved down our throats in books, on tv programmes, films, news media and politicians. They all tell us that we are on the wrong side of history because we believe that all sex outside a valid marriage is sinful. Thanks very much Pope Francis, but how's about telling your niece, sister, aunt or other relatives that God doesn't really approve of sin and the priest in the confessional can bless you 'til the cows come home but he can't give you absolution, which is the purpose of confession, unless you repent and have a firm purpose of amendment. Rather than encouraging them to guilt trip priests in the confessional, why not just tell them the truth. If the Pope is ashamed of Church teaching, he needs to keep his mouth shut rather than manipulating the rest of us into accepting heresy under the guise of mercy. Since his approach hasn't worked on his own family, maybe he should get the message that he's using the wrong approach rather than spreading his error. If he's afraid of being persecuted by the world for teaching the truth, then he should have told his St. Gallen mafia he wasn't the man for the job because no matter how much he waters down the faith, the Church will be hated by the world and eventually true believers will be persecuted. He needs to spend more time reading the bible and spend less time with Emma Bonino, Paul Erhlich and the various rich politicians, celebrities and atheists whose company he prefers to Catholics.
If Pope Francis wants us to take him seriously, he needs to be consistent in his teaching. That means relaying the same message to rich Germans as to poor Chileans. He might start in his own diocese of Rome, followed by his homeland, then Malta, Austria, the US and every other diocese where there are as many interpretations as there are bishops. Right now, he's playing a blinder preparing the once united in faith Catholic Church for inter-communion with Lutherans who have as many interpretations of their faith as they have ministers. He has already belittled the Blessed Eucharist by giving the ok to dish it out to anyone who shows up. The next step will be to change Catholic teaching on the Eucharist, all in the name of ecumenism and rehabilitating a notorious heretic like Martin Luther. Rather than singing his praises, why don't you explain to us how come a dead heretic is no longer a heretic and how come the Vicar of Christ had the time to travel to celebrate with heretics when he couldn't be bothered to clarify his ambiguous teaching when requested by four Catholic Cardinals who were forced to go public with their dubia to protect the Deposit of Faith for the sake of the flock he is charged with shepherding.
As to bringing people living openly sinful lives into active involvement in parishes, it's hard enough for faithful Catholic parents to address these issues with their children after they have been conditioned to accept them as good by supposedly Catholic schools, often by supposedly Catholic teachers. Now the Pope wants to extend the brainwashing to parishes. How many German Euros equate to thirty pieces of silver after 2000 years of inflation?
Funny! Took me a minute, but I get it!
You say Pope Francis has gone further to 'clarify' ---
Now that is a first because without intending to be rude I wish clarity was one of his virtues.
I have actually stopped reading much of what he says due to a lack of clarity in his thinking. I find his thought processes difficult to follow.
Just saying !!
I don't think Pope Francis has told us anything in this regard - he's merely asking - How CAN people living in these circumstances be part of Church life? I don't agree where you've got to with your views, but hey that's just me.
I don't get it, but would love you to clarify
Teljam, if as you sense Pope Francis is just a welcoming pope then why the ambiguity as it refers to comments and footnote in AL? Why won't he respond to the dubia that his fellow hierarchy has asked for in good faith? What the veil? Where is Christ's teaching, "let your yes be yes and your not be no, as anything else is from the evil one"?
Devastating from Father Hunwicke today: "...an angry mouth which seems incapable of shutting except when confronted with Dubia."
[Father Hunwicke was formerly in the Anglican Church and came across the Tiber via Pope Emeritus Benedict's Ordinariate policy. He has seen all the equivocations, vagueness and outright dishonesty already in the Anglican Church and quite understandably recognises the same liberal efforts being attempted in the Catholic Church. An infernal Groundhog today for him if the liberals succeed. His column today is worth checking out, full of black humour-go read his John Stuart Mill gold medal award for 'Most Moral Adulterer'! And he's right on the money.]
Pope Francis=false mercy, false charity, false humility
Every now and then a new member enters and argues with the same 4 or 5 members. They think you are one of those members that is banned from MOG. You are not one of those banned members because of your writing style. I think you are on the right track and I enjoy your postings. But some of the members of MOG feel the Holy Father is lost, mentally ill, heretic and/or anti-pope. Most of us think that is extreme but for now they have friends in high places. It's just like the church. Lots of politics in this place. But overall everyone is nice here and trying to be a faithful Catholic. I think you will enjoy the different spiritualities of all the members. You probably won't find a more educated bunch.
Welcome to the fold
Note: MOG a sanctuary for saints
Perhaps conduct a Poll on the Forum asking how many have concerns re Pope Francis and the present Papacy and who has not?
We may find that there are more than four or five who have such concerns.
For good or ill, this Pope has the ear of the secular media. If he brought this miracle to public attention (or even just the attention of Catholics) it would have a beneficial effect I am sure. He was an auxiliary bishop in Buenos Aires when the miracle occurred (in that diocese) so I'm not sure about his direct involvement in the verification process later when he was a cardinal but will take your word for it. If Jesus went to the trouble of creating a Eucharistic miracle, it was for a purpose (faith is still susceptible to proof especially weak or non-existent faith) and provable miracles should be proclaimed loudly for everyone's spiritual benefit. (Lights and bushels...)
Do you mean our old friend Joe Crozier if so then I share your opinion, if not then probably a family member.
Hi Teljam, welcome to the forum!
I have posted this before, "The Marian Solution" (http://vultuschristi.org/index.php/2016/12/difficult-pastoral-situations-the-marian-solution/) This solution answers Pope Francis's call for mercy for those who wish to re-enter the practice of their Catholic faith and also satifies the inherent duty to conform to the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Here is the gist of the article:
"I still recall the story that Father F. recounted: it had to do with a Catholic man and a Catholic woman, both still married to their respective spouses, who had, for many years, been living together in an objective state of sin, all the while looking for a way to return to the Sacraments. Father F. told them that so long as they remained together, living as man and wife, they could not approach the Sacraments. Sensing their grief and not wanting to leave them altogether without hope, Father F. proposed another solution. He asked the couple if they would follow what he proposed. The couple, being sincere and of a generous disposition, promised that they would do whatever was asked of them, short of leaving one another.
Father F. asked the unhappy couple to come to a certain church on a given Saturday morning, and to meet him at the altar of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The couple presented themselves before the altar of the Blessed Virgin Mary at the appointed hour; Father F. told them that he was going to offer Holy Mass in honour of the Blessed Virgin Mary, asking her to intervene in their difficult situation in whatever way her Immaculate Heart saw fit. The couple, for their part, simply assisted at the Holy Mass. Both of them wept bitterly during the Mass, uniting their tears, in some way, to the drop of water mingled with the wine in the chalice.
At the end of the Mass, Father F. asked the couple to promise him three things: 1) to attend Holy Mass faithfully on every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation without, of course, receiving Holy Communion; 2) to consecrate themselves to the Blessed Virgin Mary and, as a token of their consecration, to wear the Miraculous Medal; 3) to recite the rosary together every evening. The couple promised to do all three things. Within a year’s time all the obstacles to their return to the sacraments were resolved in ways that struck the couple and all who knew them as nothing short of miraculous. They were able to begin afresh. The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces, obtained for them all the graces needed to go forward in repentance and in perfect conformity to the teachings of her Son and the laws of the Church. The story reads like something out of pages of The Glories of Mary by Saint Alphonsus except for the fact that the events recounted happened about fifty years ago.
"In all the discussions surrounding the controversy stirred up by Amoris Laetitia, I am struck by how little one speaks of grace, and of Our Lady, and of prayer. There is but one solution to difficult pastoral situations, and that one solution is grace. Grace is obtained by prayer, and prayer is within the reach of every soul. There are souls who choke on the words of the Act of Contrition but who can murmur a Hail Mary. Let such souls do this much. Our Lady, the Mediatrix of All Graces, will not refuse the grace of contrition to one who, incapable of anything more, simply calls upon her name. It is, I think, a great pity that the magnificent text of Saint Bernard, Respice Stellam, Voca Mariam, is not more often cited by those ministering to souls in difficult pastoral situations. At the end of the day, The Marian Solution may be not only the best solution, but the only solution."
DJM this is a brilliant solution. It brings to mind something I have been pondering for a while. I am not speaking of any one prelate or group of prelates, but as a whole, the Church has lost faith. The solution proposed in the article you cited is a supernatural one. One that might have been given to a couple back in the 50's. It would almost never occur to today's Church. In today's Church God is removed. Put on a shelf. We have lost that intimacy with the Divine that we once had. Now I am not saying it is really gone. It is as there as it ever was but people do not choose to access it through prayer.
In this special time, when God has chosen to put forward His Mother as the Divine prescription for our problems, it is strange that the Church has chosen to abandon Her. Where is the Rosary? The Scapular? The Miraculous Medal? Consecrations? Novena's?
These things have been largely left behind by the Church as relics of a bygone age. Yes they are still "on the books" but few know about them or utilize them. Ask any "Catholic" under 40 what any of the above are and they will look at you with blank stares for the most part. Can this abandonment be anything but a diabolical plan?
How many people in Church actually believe in the Real Presence anymore?
I bet very few. Mostly they probably think the Mass is just ceremonial or maybe the bread and wine become holy bread and wine or something along those lines. I bet fewer than a handful actually think that Christ is physically present in the room with them during Mass.
Ah - thank you for this. I really wasn't sure.
Yep I can assure you and all I'm not someone who has been banned before (from any forum).
Just for the record I enjoy the discussions, and I enjoy reading other people's opinions. Also I try to take great care to not attack anyone and try and make it clear that this is my way of looking at things and show my reasoning. Others do the same, and to me that makes a great forum.
Thanks for the clarification, and thanks to those who have replied - I enjoy reading them, and try to appreciate other points of view.
Though I can say I probably don't see a lot of the things going on in the Church in the same light that you do, I do think your posts are well thought through and gentlemanly. A forum with varying points of view (as long as they are Catholic) can make us all think about these subjects better.
Thanks so much for your polite and respectful posting style
It's much nicer than when we all get into catfights about these things.
We're not automatons. We are all unique and we have all had different experiences. Naturally, we are not all going to see things the same way. I would think that, though the paths be narrow, Truth can be approached from more than one direction.
How many people are talking to their priest(s) and writing their bishops about their concerns vs. Just posting on this forum?
Padraig talks about putting up a fight but what does that mean exactly?
So many threads about this topic and is the expectation this will enlighten readers about the true nature of the pope?
Our Lady asks us to pray the Rosary as we are in a spiritual war.
The Rosary is the chain that will bind the enemy, the ancient serpent who so easily deceives mankind.
Separate names with a comma.