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Pope Francis (A defense)

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by Mark Dohle, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    Pope Francis
    (A defense)​

    I recently read an article from OnePeterFive titled: “Four Years Later: Reflections on an Unprecedented Pontificate.” When I first starting reading the article I found myself rolling my eyes a bit, and I guess they may still be rolling. It started off with this quote: “On March 13, 2013, I sat in my office and watched my screen as a new pope — a man whom I had never seen before that moment — walked out onto the loggia of St. Peter’s Basilica. I had never heard of him. I did not even know his name. Like most Catholics, I had approached the papal conclave with a sense of hopeful anticipation. But the feeling that came over me when I saw the man the cardinals had elected was shockingly forceful. It was a feeling of icy cold dread. As I looked at him, standing there, staring out at the crowd, I heard seven words distinctly in my mind, unbidden: “This man is no friend of Tradition.”

    I read the article and it did give me pause to consider my perceptions of this Pope. Yet I when I started reading the comments on the article, I was disturbed. One commenter pretty much came up with the belief that Pope Francis is possessed by the devil. Another said he is the ‘chastisement’. I found the whole thing event distasteful and wondering if the people who actually go to that site are completely in their right mind. I know that they are of course. They were taking their subjective first experiences of this Pope as some sort of heavenly verification about how unfit this pope is. When in fact, they are just people who long for a past that will never return and perhaps never existed.

    If labels must be used, I would say I am a ‘moderate’ catholic. That means that I love tradition, for me it a living reality, but I also love many good things about the Church today. I remember the past. I was 14 when the Latin Mass was stopped and the New Ordo took effect. At the time I told the priest that it was too sudden there was little if any preparation and why could not both the Latin, and New Ordo, be kept and let the laity choose which one they would want to go to. He said that Rome has spoken.

    Today many who are speaking out for the Tridentine Mass come across as just angry and frustrated and have an overly sentimental attachment to it. I often feel that it is theater to them, but not based on how the mass was actually celebrated in the past when I was young. It was often rushed, and the altar boys would often get tongue tied over the Latin and the rubrics were so rigid I would think most priests were glad when the English came in. Also, a plus that it could actually be understood. After a short time, I grew to love the Mass in a language that I could understand.

    This Pope is from a poor country that has had many political struggles. Pope Francis is a champion for the individual human being and their worth before God.

    He also understands that his office, as well as the office of Cardinals, Bishops, and Priest, are a call to deeper service of the people. He truly believes in the example of Jesus Christ when he washed the feet of his Apostles. He speaks to the people, not at them. He uses everyday language and does not disguise what he wants to say by using words that soften what he wants to say. He also understands the messiness of life and how before anyone should judge we should enter into their life’s experiences. When reading the Gospel it shows how Jesus related to others, to ‘the sinner’, to the ‘outcast’. So it is natural that he would seek to enter into the lives of those who are divorced and remarried outside the Church. It is messy, not clean cut. We are told not to judge for a reason. Many sins are overlooked by the pious, that could be just as serious, or more so than those who are living in marriage outside the church. Perhaps we should look into our own hearts before judging others.

    As a Catholic, I understand at ever more profound levels what it means to belong to the Body of Christ. Imagine when we pray, in union with Jesus Christ, we are one with all, outside of space and time. It is in that space, outside of time, that we are in union with all. I do not think we should ever underestimate our role in the Church. The world has always been a rough, messy, cruel, going to hell in a hand basket kind of place, yet Christ Jesus came to us, loves us, and when we pray we are to open up our hearts to all.

    Yes, the Church struggles, yet we are promised that the Gates of Hell will not prevail. I doubt that this Pope is seeking to destroy the Church. He wants to bring us, Christ Jesus, to lead us to understand that how we treat the poor, is how we treat Christ Jesus. If we as Christians would live that out, I doubt many of the troubles in the Church and in the world be the way they are. I would like to close with this quote from the Pope. Perhaps if all of us prayed over this, and sought to live it out in a more conscious way, we would become together in ways that are important and not waste time over arguing if this Pope is good or evil, or the anti-pope. Perhaps the Holy Spirit is trying to break open our hearts, to not be afraid like Christ Jesus was not afraid to feel the pain of others…..yes, even the pain of this Pope, who I believe does carry the heart of Christ within his own heart. Or perhaps it is Christ Heart that has one-ed itself with his.—Br.MD

    “Go out to others and share the good news that God, our Father,
    walks at our side. He frees us from anonymity, from a life of
    emptiness and selfishness, and brings us to the school
    of encounter. He removes us from the fray of competition
    and self-absorption, and he opens before us the path of peace.
    That peace which is born of accepting others, that peace
    which fills our hearts whenever we look upon those in need
    as our brothers and sisters.”—Pope Francis​
    Jeanne, Marie-Lou and Rose like this.
  2. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I can only candidly write that when I regard the present Pope , his person, his words and his actions I am filled with total dread, horror, and a sick revulsion.

    With this monstrous Papacy all bets are off. Only God can save us.
    SgCatholic, little me, Beth B and 2 others like this.
  3. picadillo

    picadillo Powers

    Sorry Mark. I am a traditional novus ordo catholic who is in a state of shock and denial over what this pope teaches and what all other popes taught. I guess if you believe in global warming, communism (liberation theology) you may identify with him among so many other things he preches. He is a first-class bully in my opinion.
    Blizzard, Beth B and SteveD like this.
  4. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    Thank you for your comment. I am a devout Catholic, that is enough. I understand you reaction.

  5. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    Thank you. Time will tell my friend. I pray for him and the Church everyday.

    Don_D likes this.
  6. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    Half truths is what I see in many of Pope Francis's words. This is dangerous to say the least for the salvation of souls. He speaks of mercy and uses the poor as his veil, yet when speaking of mercy for those in adultery, he speaks in another way against the 6th commandment. How sly. He sets himself up with a 'smoke and screen', first labeling anyone who dares adhere to the unchanging doctrines on the faith as Pharisees and Judgemental etc... in his first attempt to stifle dissent from his agenda. He buddies up with the globalists and anti-populationists to what end? Yes, he has said and done good things, but that does NOT excuse his false mercy agenda and words. It makes it more necessary than ever to pray for him that he can see his radical agenda and half truths. The old saying goes, "show me your friends and I will tell you who you are". Enough said.
  7. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    So, how do you speak to those who are living in sin? How do you reach them? How do people reach you when you sin, in whatever way that you do? Does being harsh help? We often use anger and then cover it over with 'truth', when in fact, it is something different. We all sin. yet we tend to focus on the sins that others do that we do not struggle with. I believe the pope is trying to reach those people, just as Christ Jesus did. I have spoken to many who have returned to the church and away from sin because of this pope, in the end, only God is the judge, and God's judgment, whatever they are, are right and just. Many moderate Catholics, devout Catholics, love and admire this man. Let us pray for the pope and one another. Thank you for you comment my friend.

    “If we—all of us—accept the grace of Jesus Christ, he changes our heart and from sinners makes us saints. To become holy we do not need to turn our eyes away and look somewhere else, or have as it were the face on a holy card! No, no, that is not necessary. To become saints only one thing is necessary: to accept the grace that the Father gives us in Jesus Christ. There, this grace changes our heart. We continue to be sinners for we are weak, but with this grace which makes us feel that the Lord is good, that the Lord is merciful, that the Lord waits for us, that the Lord pardons us—this immense grace that changes our heart.”
    Pope Francis, The Church of Mercy

    Don_D and Rose like this.
  8. Heidi

    Heidi Archangels

    The difference is that when Jesus reached out to them, He said "go and sin no more." There has to be repentance and a resolution to not continue in that sin. The guidelines in Amoris Laeticia do not require that.
    Blizzard and Beth B like this.
  9. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    little me likes this.
  10. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    I think you need to reread the document, my friend. Here is one quote:

    Can the divorced and civilly-remarried receive the
    sacraments? As a general matter, baptized
    members of the Church are always in principle invit
    ed to the sacraments. The confessional’s
    doors are always open to the repentant and contrite
    of heart. What of Communion?
    Catholic, not only the divorced and civilly-remarri
    ed, must sacramentally confess all serious sins
    of which he or she is aware, with a firm purpose to
    change, before receiving the Eucharist. In
    some cases, the subjective responsibility of the pe
    rson for a past action may be diminished. But
    the person must still repent and renounce the sin,
    with a firm purpose of amendment.
    Yellowcoffeecup likes this.
  11. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    An annulment means that there was never a canonical marriage.
  12. Heidi

    Heidi Archangels

    Ok, the way some Bishops are interpreting it, then, is that they are not requiring a purpose of amendment.
  13. Heidi

    Heidi Archangels

    The issue is not about those who have received an annulment and then remarried, it is those who remarry without an annulment. They do still have a canonical marriage to their first spouse.
  14. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    They are often dealing with people who are unable to respond to the message of the gospel and the Church. Its purpose is to draw these people closer to Christ and deeper conversion. I for one am happy to see it. When it comes to sexual matters we are harsh, other matters equally serious not so much so.

  15. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I want to speak a bit more on this subject. Have you ever heard Pope Francis or any progressive for that matter speak on the spiritual works of mercy, which are superior to the corporal works of mercy? For instance, 1) admonish the sinner, 2) instruct the ignorant 3) counsel the doubtful ? No, that would be judging, right? One cannot get to heaven on living the corporal works of mercy alone! Yet, the progressives seem to preach this very theme. I know, I have had them for pastors for nearly 30 years. Not once have they spoken of sin, commandments, church doctrine or the black and white of the faith. It is always has a social justice bend. Only a month or so ago the Gospel was on adultery. Our pastor did not touch this issues, but went right to talking about Mother Teresa and more social justice. This is not doing the words or love of Jesus justice, but it does make it easy for sinners to remain in their sin. There is hardly no one going to confession, but the line is full of communicants. That is what we get with false mercy.
    Blizzard, DivineMercy, Light and 5 others like this.
  16. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    Yes, and the church is trying to change its pastoral response, by being gentle and drawing them deeper into the life of the Church. Those who come to the point of choice, it is then they will choose which way to go.

    josephite likes this.
  17. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I will add one more thing..... I foresee the False Prophet and the Antichrist doing the same thing. They will surely mix truth and lie (half truths) for in this and only in this can they persuade the masses of baptized Christians, in sin, their way. Even after the Warning forthcoming, most will not repent, because they will soon listen to the FP and AC who will give a completely different account of what just took place. It will be the same half truths that Satan gave to Adam and Eve.
    DivineMercy and Dolours like this.
  18. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I respect your desire to be charitable to the Holy father Mark, we all should be. We should be very respectful of all who have taken up the religious life and I thank your for your vocation and all you do.

    That being said something very horrible is happening in the Church at the moment. People who are living in objective mortal sin are being told they can continue committing mortal sin with full knowledge and still receive the sacraments of Reconciliation and Holy Eucharist without a firm purpose of amendment to stop sinning. That has never been a part of the Church's Magisterium.

    The fact is our religion is demanding. Those who will not take up their cross will not be saved. That is a tough pill to swallow, but it is the truth.

    The Church converted entire continents by being blunt about sin. Coddling people in their sinful ways is not the answer. It gives them a false sense that "everything is okay" when indeed it is not. People are being led down the road to hell. We need to be charitable, but we cannot be blind.

    To answer your questions. Yes, sometimes telling the truth and being "harsh" does help. I don't even like the use of the term "harsh". I have been a Catholic all of my life and I have never met a "harsh" priest so let's not put that label on it. It's not harsh it is truth. This truth just happens to be a tough one. If someone is committing adultery, they are...committing adultery. Giving it another name won't make it better. In fact if we use the correct term of adultery perhaps that will make the person awaken to the sinfulness of their actual situation. If we call it a "second union" with "graces" we are complicit is making their sin more palatable to them and allowing them continue in it.

    Being truthful can help because it is the Truth and the Holy Spirit that will open their hearts if they are told it. Too often this supernatural aspect of dealing with sinners is ignored. It is not us who converts people. God does. He is just loving enough to let us play a small part in it.
    Blizzard, DivineMercy, Light and 2 others like this.
  19. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    I do believe there is a struggle with evil, both in the human heart as well as in the spiritual world. To show mercy towards others is harder than not judging. We do it too easily, judging, and always with good reason. We are told not to judge for a reason, a serious one. For each one of us will get what we put out, measure for measure. The old way of dealing with the divorced did not do much good. I think it is time to try a new way of showing mercy. We are all sinners, many caught up in the same sin, whatever it is. We all need mercy and compassion, I think it is better to show compassion, while at the same time seeking to lead those who struggle to a deeper understanding of God compassion and mercy. People respond to that. I simply pray for all, because all are beloved of God, he died for all, and yes it is no mercy to overlook sin, for it leads to self-destruction, but only God knows those who deny and reject him.
  20. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    Objective Mortal Sin is the 'word'. Only God knows when an actual mortal sin is committed. Again, I tell people how serious our life on this earth is. What we choose to do, what we do, how we live and how we treat others has serious consequences. However, I would never try to judge who goes to hell. Don't forget, Jesus was hardest on people like me, a professional religious, doing all the right things, but still having a closed and hardened heart. The outcast were easier to deal with. Like the divorced Catholics they are today's lepers among the 'faithful'.

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