I suppose it is a bit like test driving a new car or plane. Put it through a lot of radical changes and the stress lines show. Pope Francis is very radical. But I did not expect this so soon. They may get support from the Curia but I suspect the Cardinals out in the vine yards would back the Holy Father. Very,very sad if it is true. So soon too.
I would take anything printed in The Tablet with a huge vat of salt, I've heard that it's a leading UK Liberal Catholic news outlet. http://protectthepope.com/?p=6788
The Tablet is a Liberal rag, true. I suppose the truth will come out shortly. Still I cannot imagine what motive they would have for making this up , it would not be at all in their interests. I notice too that news of this is spreading on the Catholic Web: http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=21195
I think this is a Liberal source too. but I give it for what it is worth: http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/francis-encountering-curial-opposition-cardinal-says
I want to go back to my question a minute though. Again I am making many assumptions here if this indeed was the case. We can all agree that the Eurcharist is the greatest gift Heaven has ever given and the most important thing we can ever do right? So lets assume that the hour is indeed late and there is great change coming. The most important thing we can do right now to prepare for change and the hard times to come is to frequent the Eurcharist. I am quite sure Pope Francis knows this. If the Pope wishes to give his blessing to do so why would he need to wait for the proper process. I have to run to a meeting but will return to this discussion and continue my thought process.
I think this is a very significant report. The Honduran Cardinal is quite outspoken in his approach and I find it surprising yet refreshing that he is so ready to 'say out loud' what he is thinking. I think this is probably one of the reasons why Pope Francis likes him. This news encourages me in the view that decisions at the synod later this year might well lead to serious problems in the Church. I suspect Pope Francis is fully aware of that danger but presumably feels that the decisions and changes will be necessary.
I can only guess as to his motives. But if he acted would he not pre empt the work of the Synod. ? It is a bit like asking a mechanic to fix your car then, in front of him lifting the bonnet and starting to work at it yourself.....the mechanic would be insulted.
Yes I would guess if they bring this out into the open things are bad. When they wash their dirty linen in public it must be very,very dirty indeed.
I hope this is not true but it looks like this Cardinal may have been openly canvassing in the USA for support for the Holy Father, if so things are very,very grim indeed.
Thanks Peter. I'm afraid I still disagree though. I'll use the notation you have used in order to help keep it short and as coherent as possible. And please read it as someone who is smiling and not angry ( I have a tendancy to come off as such I'm afraid, but let me assure you this isn't the case i) I agree the link I provided isn't much of a case in and of itself. I included it as a reference of sorts as to the original Greek (Time constraints at home with the fam during the weekend) Still, there are many, many theologians who would argue the opposite. This may be a better link: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/life-and-family/marriage/on-divorce-and-remarriage/ I don't expect to change your mind and I highly doubt that will change yours. But I believe there is a lot of merit in this interpretation and Church tradition has indeed backed it up. To argue otherwise wouldn't seem prudent. ii) I'm not entirely convinced it would be a purely discipline issue. It seems to me that it may in fact be doctrinal. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...oc_14091994_rec-holy-comm-by-divorced_en.html CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CONCERNING THE RECEPTION OF HOLY COMMUNION BY THE DIVORCED AND REMARRIED MEMBERS OF THE FAITHFUL "5. The doctrine and discipline of the Church in this matter, are amply presented in the post-conciliar period in the Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris Consortio. The Exhortation, among other things, reminds pastors that out of love for the truth they are obliged to discern carefully the different situations and exhorts them to encourage the participation of the divorced and remarried in the various events in the life of the Church. At the same time it confirms and indicates the reasons for the constant and universal practice, "founded on Sacred Scripture, of not admitting the divorced and remarried to Holy Communion"(9). The structure of the Exhortation and the tenor of its words give clearly to understand that this practice, which is presented as binding, cannot be modified because of different situations (emphasis mine)." 6. Members of the faithful who live together as husband and wife with persons other than their legitimate spouses may not receive Holy Communion. Should they judge it possible to do so, pastors and confessors, given the gravity of the matter and the spiritual good of these persons(10) as well as the common good of the Church, have the serious duty to admonish them that such a judgment of conscience openly contradicts the Church's teaching(11). Pastors in their teaching must also remind the faithful entrusted to their care of this doctrine." It also makes use of the term doctrine throughout the letter. This being the case I don't think it is a cut and dry issue. iii) Agreed. I was presenting this on the assumption that it was. iv) The term "moral nuance" does not sit well with me. Can you further explain? I'm aware that the situation is one of sorrow and tremendous pain, but that does not mean we shy away from the truth (and I'm sure you didn't mean it like that).
We can toss this whole thing around forever, but lets get to the basics. If one is married, they are married. If one has sex with someone other than their spouse, they commit adultery. Is "thou shall not commit adultery" a Commandment, or a guideline? If one is told at the time of marriage that they must love and be faithful until death, are they capable of understanding that term? Here is the problem in all of this (and lets even forget about kicking Christ in the face by taking the Eucharist while in mortal sin!) The problem is that a person will be judged upon death as to the state of their life at the time of death. Is the person in adultery? If so, the gates of hell will open to them, as Jesus says that NO adulterers will enter heaven. It would not be kind of us to tell them that this is ok in ANY way. It could even mean hell for us, because according to scripture, we ARE our brother's keeper, and must warn him that if he/she continues in their sin they will die an eternal death, being sent to hell with all the rest of God's enemies. If we warn them, and they repent of their sin, they can be saved, however if we don't warn them, and they continue in their sin, not only will they pay for their sin, we also will be held accountable.
Maybe this will explain , Heidi. I hope all is well with yourself? http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/francis-encountering-curial-opposition-cardinal-says
Well I am not a theologian like Peter so I hesitate to swim out into deep waters, but Peter will no doubt correct me if I am wrong. But it occurs to me that it is indeed a matter of Canon Law but with strong Doctrinal implications? its kinda like a horse and cart , you can't have the horse without the cart trailing along behind. I await correction of course.
I am inclined to see it as simple black and white stuff as Carmel does. But I admit I am not a theologian. But I do like simple stuff, I hate it when things get complicated. The devil I think likes complicated.
I like that analogy. So it it kind of like women priests? Not exactly doctrine but not changable either? Sorry if I am getting this too complicated. I of course hope that this discussion would prove to be futile as there will be no change in the future. But it seems to me that this is a much bigger deal than changing a procedure. I'll wait for Peter to reply. I hope he doesn't think I'm badgering him.
Life is hard.... I lost my husband, but by no means do I feel like I cannot live without a man. God does provide joy. He provides Newfies too, if you feel the need to giggle everyday...
