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Medjugorje - the Commission findings

Discussion in 'Marian Apparitions' started by davidtlig, May 16, 2017.

  1. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    I suggest people watch this on youtube so they can read the comments posted, interesting comment about Fatima is posted I am not certain if it is true or not though.
     
  2. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Only had to watch the first 20 seconds -- to spot the first 'deliberate' mistake --

    he says there have been over 40000 separate daily messages in Medjugorje--

    No - at present & for many years there have been only 2 public messages per month -- one on the 2nd for unbelievers and one on the 25th for the world.

    And later he talks about Donal Foley (who wrote a book condemning Medjugorje) as an 'English historian' -- as far as I know Foley has a BA degree in Humanities and a BD in Theology. So he doesn't have a degree in History.

    Foley runs the website http://www.theotokos.org.uk -- a man best avoided in my opinion.
     
  3. MMM

    MMM Principalities

    Funny how some see it as approved and others as a negative judgement. It appears the church may approve the initial appearances only which in many ways is an approval but the negative judgement on the 35+ years of messages will have a huge impact likely. Despite the 35 years of messages which do seem in line with Catholic teaching but very broad stroke and repetitive, it's the secrets which are the "hook" that keep many holding onto this apparition I think. With the secrets no longer supported as authentic I wonder what will happen next. Does the report even address them specifically? Does it have to?

    I tend to agree with the report, it does seem reasonable. All the conversions and renewals doesn't mean the virgin is giving these messages. And the fact that most seem in line with our faith doesn't mean they are from her either. Perhaps they are but the church needs proof and clearly there isn't enough. They don't appear from the evil one either though.

    If those that truly converted and truly believe the catholic faith they know that this sight isn't integral to making it to heaven. If people reject the authority of the church on this or lose faith due to this judgement they weren't truly following the Catholic faith but a physical site where they believed Mary appeared. Mary and Jesus are as close as a breath away and no one needs this to be authentic.

    The coming months will be interesting. I think most won't change their current view and still wait patiently for these supposed secrets to be announced. This could be a pivotal situation to test the flocks obedience to the church.

    My personal opinion is Medjugorje, the secrets and messages never really spoke to me so I have no strong opinion either way.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  4. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Pope's envoy expects to complete Medjugorje report by end of June

    MAY 19, 2017

    Archbishop Hoser, appointed in February as the Pope's special envoy at Medjugorje, has now returned to his Warsaw-Prague diocese. In a telephone internew with the Italian daily newspaper Avvenire. the Polish prelate said he has not completed his mission and is in the process of writing his report which he expects to deliver by the end of June, and afterwards probably meet with Pope Francis.

    He told Auuemre, "The pastoral work carried out in Medjugorje is very intense, developed and diversified. It is based on Marian worship but at the same time Christocentric: Eucharistic worship, Via Crucis, Rosary... Certainly I haven't seen anything imaginative or deviating. I have seen a climate of recollection, prayer, contemplation - in short, a great spiritual fervour.

    "What is striking is undoubtedly the amount of Confessions, but also very positive is the work of formation of consciences with the organised meeting and seminars. Pilgrims are not diminishing."

    "I did not perceive great differences between the parish of Medjugorje and the Franciscans on the one hand, and the diocesan clergy and other religious on the other. Several parish priests in the neighbourhood are coming to help. Of course, Mostar's bishop Ratko Peric reaffirms his position clearly contrary to the veracity of the apparitions, and emphasises that what is false cannot be built on."

    Commenting on the recent personal comment made by Pope Francis expressing his doubt about the alleged ongoing apparitions at Medjugorje, the Archbishop said, "The Pontiff has delivered his personal point of view on what we call the second phase of the apparitions."

    Archbishop Hoser then referred to the leaked' report of the Medjugorje Commission and its acceptance of the first seven apparitions, comparing the process to the apparitions at Kibeho and how the examining commission there separated the phases to reach a conclusion for the Church to give official approval to the first phase of the phenomenon and only three of the visionaries.

    http://www.themedjugorjewitness.org/
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  5. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    It can be so confusing about what the ongoing attitude towards Medjugorje should be, because of the critics.

    Those of us who remember the shinanekins with Saint Padre Pio, and the 40 or more years of the shinanekins with Saint Maria Faustina and Divine Mercy Devotion will be far more sceptical about the critics. It was once considered anathema to believe in the genuineness of Padre Pio or Divine Mercy, now it is ok.

    I am happy there will be a shrine by the sounds of it, and the Franciscans may get more pastoral support through the Vatican to meet the volume of work all us visitors create when we go to Medjugorje.

    I really do not expect an approval until all apparitions cease which I don't expect in my lifetime. But I don't think it wise to wait and respond to the message to pray, fast, adore Jesus in Eucharist, go to confession, receive Eucharist until after my life is over. What do the rest of you think. Or are the critics not practising the Faith until the Church approves of what we have had two thousand years to get into our thick skulls.

    No wonder Blessed Mother pondered all the things of God in her heart, otherwise we would be still waiting for the Messiah. If it were up to the approval of the authorities. Or does anyone think authorities never existed before the New Testament.
     
    ComeSoon! and padraig like this.
  6. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    "Or are the critics not practising the Faith until the Church approves of what we have had two thousand years to get into our thick skulls".
    What an extraordinary statement. As a skeptic of Medjugorje who attempts to practice the faith including praying, fasting, adoring Jesus in the Eucharist, going to confession and receiving the Eucharist, I find it quite offensive. Catholics have been practising their faith in the same way for two thousand years and will continue doing so whether or not Medjugorje is approved by the Church, and they can be confident that their salvation doesn't depend on sharing your belief in it.
     
    little me and BrianK like this.
  7. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Wise.

    Hosea 14:9

    Whoever is wise, let him understand these things; Whoever is discerning, let him know them For the ways of the LORD are right, And the righteous will walk in them, But transgressors will stumble in them.


    [​IMG]


    Large crowds for confession; Medugorje

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
    Sanctus likes this.
  8. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    The Sacrament of Confession is available in every parish, as is Jesus in the Blessed Eucharist. Our running water resides in every tabernacle. We will never stumble as long as we seek the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Our Lord Jesus Christ has already assured us of that.
     
    little me and BrianK like this.
  9. padraig

    padraig New Member

    What sets Medugorje apart is the sheers numbers, especially of young people who are attending; from reports of priests the quality of the confessions, including General COnfessions and the number of radical conversions reported, very similar to the numbers attending St Padre Pio.

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZJV1yBvUd5oC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=numbers+going+to+confession+medjugorje&source=bl&ots=LJBZlg7zXo&sig=DeDc3MTukq0qO21ptpWh29HUmEc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4u5L3if7TAhVIJMAKHf-WBpcQ6AEIUTAE#v=onepage&q=numbers going to confession medjugorje&f=false

    [​IMG]
     
    Claves.Sancti.Petri likes this.
  10. padraig

    padraig New Member

  11. Too funny I know the author
     
  12. CrewDog

    CrewDog Guest

    I'm thinking that this verse was appropriate for today's Church Confusion, Angst and Division. Get back to The Basics of Our Faith! The Apostle's Creed and Jesus, I Trust in You! .. and much less about Vatican politics, anonymous sources and unapproved prophecies/events or whatever extraneous "things" that distract you!
    .... and a shot aimed personally at this old curmudgeonly CrewDog. ;)

    Heartlight Daily Verse - 20 May

    Romans 15:5-6
    May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Thoughts on today's verse:
    Unity comes from God's Spirit as we follow Jesus. But unity has a purpose much deeper than our getting along with each other. Jesus prayed that we would be one so the world would know that God sent him (John 17). We want to be united so our praise can bring glory to God. Unity is far more than a goal, it is a process through which the world learns of Jesus and we glorify the Father who sent him and saved us. Can you think of anything more fundamental to our faith than that!
    Prayer:
    Great and Almighty God, Eternal Strength for all who call on your name, I apologize and ask your forgiveness for everything I've done and every word I've spoken that has hurt someone in your family and brought a wound to the unity of your Church. Please bless my efforts as I seek less of my will and more for your glory and the encouragement of others. Through Jesus I ask it. Amen. Visit heartlight.org for more

    GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!
     
    gracia and Denise P like this.
  13. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    The post I responded to on this thread tells me that what sets Medjugorje apart is that followers of the "seers" believe that only those who agree with them can be faithful Catholics. The Mother of God is not the source of such sentiments.
     
    little me likes this.
  14. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Is Rome changing course on Medjugorje?

    by Michael Davis
    posted Thursday, 28 Sep 2017

    [​IMG]

    The Vatican appears to be heading for an unprecedented mixed verdict


    The Medjugorje movement is very much in tune with the Second Vatican Council. Devotees are prone to uplifting guitar music borrowed from charismatic Protestant revivals. They go in for those warped, El Greco-style crucifixes. They photoshop images of the Virgin Mary over the small Herzegovinian town where she has allegedly been appearing for four decades. The visionaries who claim to consort daily with Our Lady return with messages of peace, tolerance and equality. Is Medjugorje an apparition for our time?

    The Vatican seems to be leaning in that direction. In May, a commission established by Benedict XVI in 2010 to study the apparitions handed in its findings. The document, known as the Ruini report and as yet unpublished, reportedly recognised the validity of the first six apparitions. Then, in August, Archbishop Henryk Hoser said that “all indications are that the revelations will be recognised, perhaps even this year”. Hoser was appointed by the Holy See to assess whether the pastoral practices in Medjugorje were in keeping with Church teaching.

    Of course, the Ruini and Hoser reports are by no means conclusive. Just this May, the Holy Father appeared to dismiss the apparitions out of hand. Asked by reporters if he believed they were authentic, he said: “I prefer Our Lady as Mother, our Mother, and not Our Lady as head of the post office who sends a message at a stated time. This isn’t Jesus’s Mother. And these alleged apparitions don’t have much value … Who thinks that Our Lady says, ‘Come, because tomorrow at this time I will give a message to that seer?’ No!”

    Yet for Church authorities – both supporters and critics – the emphasis tends to fall less on the visions themselves and more on the remarkable ministry that’s emerged around Medjugorje. “This movement will not stop and should not be stopped, because of the good fruit that grows out of it,” said Hoser. “It is one of the liveliest places of prayer and conversion in Europe – and has a healthy spirituality.”

    Two pavilions in the village square at Medjugorje house 50 confessionals, which are constantly inundated by pilgrims. Hoser spoke to one local priest who said that “it was enough to listen to Confessions for an hour to witness real conversions”.

    Pope Francis agrees, saying that the “real core” of the Ruini report is “the spiritual fact, the pastoral fact” that thousands of pilgrims have been converted in the town. “For this there is no magic wand,” he said, “this spiritual-pastoral fact cannot be denied.” The tension between the dubious nature of the apparitions and the astounding efficacy of the site is driving Medjugorje’s halting progress towards recognition.

    To complicate matters further, 13 of the Ruini commission’s 15 members accepted the legitimacy of the first six visions, which occurred over a period of 10 days in 1981. However, only three vouched for the subsequent (and ongoing) revelations. This splitting of the Medjugorje phenomenon into two distinct phases is unprecedented, and it’s raising eyebrows across the Church.

    There is definitely a striking difference between the visions in 1981 and those that followed. The early messages are very much like those at Fatima, with their emphasis on the singular importance of the Catholic faith. During the third Medjugorje apparition on June 26, Mary told the children: “I have come because there are many true believers here. I wish to be with you to convert and to reconcile the whole world.”

    All of that quickly changed, however. In a 1992 interview, the seer Vicka was asked if Mary still desired all people to become Catholic. She is said to have replied emphatically: “No! The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son. She says it is we on earth who have made division.”

    The latter apparitions contain other major deviations from those at Fatima. For instance, the Medjugorje children eventually began to pray the Our Father with Mary, which she refused to do with the Fatima seers Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco. That makes sense: the Church teaches that Mary was conceived without sin and “remained free of every personal sin her whole life long”. She has no need to pray “forgive us our trespasses”; she’s never trespassed.

    What’s more, expert investigators have repeatedly proven that the visionaries react to external stimuli during their “ecstasies”. In October 1984, ophthalmologist Dr Jacques Philippot found that their pupils dilated when exposed to light. In January 1985, a man named Jean-Louis Martin swatted at Vicka during a vision, which caused her to blink and recoil. (Vicka sought out Martin afterwards to explain that she had been trying to stop Mary from dropping the Christ Child.)

    So why not dismiss the Medjugorje phenomenon altogether? Critics claim that, after the 10 days of valid apparitions, the visionaries were caught up in a local power struggle and were manipulated into feigning more visions. And here we stumble down the rabbit hole of factionalism in the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Church.

    Catholicism arrived in the country by way of the Franciscans, who remained dominant until diocesan clergy were given jurisdiction in the 19th century. Medjugorje is in the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno, but is still controlled by the Franciscans. Several dubious “messages” from the Virgin suggest that the Franciscans manipulated the Medjugorje children as part of their war with the diocese. Vicka, for example, claimed in 1981 that Our Lady condemned the Bishop of Mostar as “the more guilty party” in the dispute, and that Mary defended the Franciscans’ disobedience towards the bishop. In 1983, Vicka said that Mary called for the bishop’s “immediate conversion”. Otherwise, she and Jesus would “strike him”.

    The Franciscans suffered a major setback in 2008, when the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith began investigating the children’s spiritual director, the Franciscan Fr Tomislav Vlašić. They Vatican accused him, among other things, of “dubious doctrine, the manipulation of consciences, suspect mysticism, disobedience towards legitimately issued orders”… and impregnating a nun. Vlašić didn’t defend himself, instead choosing to be laicised.

    If Hoser is correct about Medjugorje being approved within the year, the Vatican will almost certainly follow the Ruini report’s advice and only authenticate the first 10 apparitions. Such a result would be guaranteed to irritate everyone: both zealous supporters, who believe the visions are ongoing, and critics – like the Diocese of Mostar – who believe the whole thing’s a con.

    However the Vatican wants to spin it, the “real core” of a Marian apparition is Mary, not the quality of pastoral care being offered four decades later. If we’re being deceived – by the visionaries, the Franciscans, or whomever – Holy Mother Church has a duty to the faithful, and to Mary, to expose the farce. The volume of conversions is wonderful, but it’s not a clinching argument.

    And what are the implications for future Marian apparitions? Let’s be clear: the “valid phase” is 10 days out of 36 years. In other words, if Rome publicly backs the first visions but not the later ones it is implicitly suggesting that Medjugorje is 99.9 per cent a hoax. If Pope Francis accepts the Ruini report and closes the investigation, there will be a serious debate about what to do with the visionaries. Are they messengers of Christ’s Virgin Mother, and therefore possibly future saints? Or are they flaky pseudo-mystics of the sort who bedevilled the medieval Church?

    The Vatican investigation into Medjugorje will settle nothing. That much is already clear. Unfortunately, nothing else is.

    Michael Davis is the Catholic Herald’s US editor

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/issues/september-29th-2017/is-rome-changing-course-on-medjugorje/
     
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  15. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Archangels

    That was the sentiment at Bayside, Long Island , New York. Probably still is. If you don't believe in, or follow, the apparitions, you will be going to hell.
    That was even in the wording of some of the so-called apparitions. Fear-inducing. cult-like.
     
  16. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Very interesting, but as we are not talking about Bayside it is hardly relevant.

    Dolours may have found individual medjugorje believers thinking themselves better than non believers but no one can claim that as a typical view.
     
  17. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Archangels

    Not sure that it is not typical
    Where is proof?
     
  18. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I have to say I laughed out loud reading this article. So now the Vatican may to come out and say that Medjugorje is 99% a fraud and 1% real.

    I guess that is the ultimate fruit of not being able to deliver clear answers.
    It's both!
     
  19. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Personally I hope the Church does not give a judgement at present.

    Leaves Medjugorje free to be a place of conversion.
     
    ComeSoon!, Pray4peace and davidtlig like this.
  20. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    I tend to think the writer of the article has no specific new information on how the Vatican may or may not respond further on the matter. My own view would be that a simple publishing of the Ruini report in an abridged form might be the most useful thing to do.

     

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