Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by Richard67, Jul 3, 2015.
Let's pray that the Holy Spirit enlightens his mind and gives him the courage to correct this error.
Sorry, I don't have 35:24 to watch the program. What is it that Cardinal Kasper is saying?
Cardnial Kasper talks of , 'Objective', sin and 'Subjective' sin and of the two being different.
I have never heard of such a thing before, that a person can appear to be in , 'Objective sin', because he or she has brken God's Laws and yet be innocent because of subjective circumstances.
I think it is better to keep things simple. The fact that this guy is the Pope's Theologigan fills me with horror/
This guy is too clever for his own good. Again it is these ideas of , 'Mercy', of 'Compassion' of, 'Understanding,' they use to put their foot in the door.
I have ogtten used to the idea that Cardinals can go right of the rails. Nothing new there.
But the idea that the Pope's personal Theologian , persoanally selected by the Holy Father himself should be publically setting forward heresy is something I find difficult to get my head around.
Hard to believe 50 years ago things were already very bad , ''Many cardinals, many bishops and many priests are on the road to perdition and are taking many souls with them''
May God have mercy on him and all such souls.
But may God help and protect even more all poor souls who listen to him.
Kasper is a Retired German Bishop and NOT the papal theologian... I thought Fr Cantalemasa(sp) was for the last 3 Popes???
So many papal conspiracies going around, Lord end it all already!!!
From my own personal experience, having been through the marriage/annulment process I was left with doubts as to the validity of the judgement to grant me an annulment. To resolve those doubts I have resubmitted my case to Rota which reverses 9 out of 10 annulments granted. I am even paying a Canon lawyer in Italy to look into my case. In other words my annulment has a good chance of being taken away from me but I would prefer to live in truth than doubt. I am not involved with anyone but would like to know I am free to marry again if circumstances changed - despite the advice of St Paul that its better to stay single. I'm probably too old for all that nonsense anyway although I have noticed the occasional pretty lady recently.
I felt a wee bit sorry for Cardinal Kasper in this interview. I don't think he is as bad as some think and say. He is an old man, in all probability a man of prayer and not just a man of high intellect or a cunning old fox, and in this interview he tried to get across his point that it was not his proposal that was approved by the Pope but the idea of debating his proposal. That is a fair distinction but it was dismissed by a somewhat bombastic interviewer who unfairly dismissed many of his points. The Cardinal did not even tell the Pope what his proposal was. Again this statement was discounted by the interviewer. The Pope did not want to know the content of Cardinal Kasper's proposal for debate. The cardinal correctly discerned this without having to be told and showed respect for the approach of Pope Francis by not going into this as it could have pre-empted the direction of synod.
Much of what the Cardinal said was true and he displayed humility as he moved towards the concession that the Pope had not supported him in the way or to the extent that he had first thought. He realized he had presumed too much. I do not agree that everything he says about mercy and pastoral care and consideration for individual is wrong in itself or worthy of ridicule. His thinking is not based on mere sentiment but his own personal conviction. He was trying to do good and perhaps was blinded by his own brilliance but even that I doubt. I just think he was well intentioned but misguided. Something must have got stuck between him and his prayer, maybe his ego.
I will stick my neck out further and suggest he is correct to say that there IS space and movement within the way Dogma and Doctrine is applied and practiced according to personal circumstance. I say "the way" not the content. The content cannot be changed. An example of this, perhaps, may be seen in the way Jesus applied the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy - Man was not made for the Sabbath but the Sabbath for man. This was a new way for an old unchangeable law. According to Jesus there were circumstances where this ancient and unchangeable law, one of the founding commandments, could be understood and applied in a different way. But I am no theologian or scriptural scholar, just your average Catholic. Maybe I have misunderstood even this.
Whether I have or not, I do not feel inclined to condemn Cardinal Kasper, a man who has given his life to the Church. I just don't agree with his thinking. In the end there is no value to a faith that is not clearly and consistently applied but if Pope Francis choose Cardinal Kasper, a man of great intellect, as his personal Theologian this ensured that his own thinking would be kept at its best and improve just as one improve one's game by regularly playing worthy opponents. I am not saying that in the case of Pope Francis this was done deliberately but it is an effect. His game is becoming better defined. Thank God for the Holy Spirit. Cardinal Kasper has suffered much ridicule for his so called proposal which he now says was only a proposal for debate. He was also very clear in the interview that he understood and accepted that we cannot change the words of Jesus or the dogma of the Church.
If Pope Francis had not given him free reign we would not have seen the full implication of the so called Kasper Proposal and the second half of the Synod would probably have been ambushed. In this, another example of the wisdom of Pope Francis is seen clearly and the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit even more clearly. I do not believe Cardinal Kasper wanted people to sin or desecrate the Eucharist. He wanted to find another and better way to help people return to the Church but the way he wanted to help, in my opinion, would have undermined Truth and that is never good. It could have led to the condemnation of many who perhaps would not have taken proper responsibility for their own actions simply because someone in the Church had let them off the hook too easily.
Through the second half of Synod, because of the exposure of the dangers of the so called Kasper Proposal, I believe, we will see the preservation and promotion and re-affirmation of Catholic Truth and thus the second half of the Synod will strengthen our Faith. It's not worth dying for a watered down Faith. The price of truth will be martyrdom. It always is, in one way or another. Every time we witness to the Faith when it comes under attack we are martyred a little. But in the long run I feel it is a price well worth paying. As Pope Francis says, "Prepare to be martyrs." At least now it will be worth it.
Again the words of the Gambler apply -
"You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away, know when to run.
You never count your money when you're sitting at the table.
There'll be time enough for counting when the dealing's done."
Pope Francis - Ace player.
50 years ago you say Mac, Pope St Pius the X condemned Moderism in the Early 1900's, way before Vatican 2 and our Lady at FATIMA....
A'fter Francis publicly praised Kasper's work, an older cardinal in Rome came to the pope and insisted: "Holy Father, you should not recommend this book! There are many heresies in it!" The pope smiled as he told Kasper the story, and reassured him: "It goes in one ear and out the other."'
In fact the , 'old Cardinal got it right, Kasper is a heretic.
NCR is a left wing/Liberal (from an American stand point ) paper...Contalamasa is the Papal House Theologin....al others may assist, but don't hold the true title of the Popes Theologian...
we need to STOP looking for Satan under every rock !
Modern Catholic Dictionaryby Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
FUNDAMENTAL OPTION. A theory of morals that each person gradually develops in a basic orientation of his or her life, either for or against God. This fundamental direction is said to be for God if one’s life is fundamentally devoted to the love and service of others, and against God if one’s life is essentially devoted to self-love and self-service.
As such, the idea of a fundamental option is not new. It was reflected in St. Augustine’s teaching that the human race is ultimately composed of two cities: the City of God, whose members love God even to the contempt of self, and the City of Man, whose members love themselves even to the contempt of God.
What is new is the use of this idea to explain mortal sin. In 1975 the Holy See issued a formal declaration, Persona Humana, in which certain theories involving the fundamental option were condemned. “There are those,” the document stated, “who go so far as to affirm that mortal sin, which causes separation from God, only exists in the formal refusal directly opposed to God’s call, or in that selfishness which completely and deliberately closes itself to the love of neighbor. They say that it is only then, that there comes into play the ‘fundamental option’, that is to say, the decision which totally commits the person and which is necessary if mortal sin is to exist.”
The Holy See admitted the description of a person’s basic moral disposition as a “fundamental option.” What is not admissible is to claim that individual human actions cannot radically change this fundamental option. A person’s moral disposition “can be completely changed by particular acts, especially when as often happens, these have been prepared for by previous more superficial acts. Whatever the case, it is wrong to say that particular acts are not enough to constitute a mortal sin” (Persona Humana, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, December 29, 1975, number 10).
Implicit in the proscribed theory is the notion that there can be serious sins, such as murder or adultery, because the actions are gravely wrong. But no mortal sin, with the loss of sanctifying grace, is committed unless a person subjectively rejects God. This would subvert the whole moral order of Christianity, which believes that the essence of mortal sin is the deliberate choice of some creature which is known to be gravely forbidden by God.
He cites an example in the interview, Joe. A lady gets divorced and remarries. Her daughter is getting First communion. The priest coundicting the holy communion comes to Kasper and says , 'Must I give communion to the daughter and not the mother, that's terrible!'.
Kasper thinks it is terrible too and that it is right the mother divorced or not should get the host.
This is not annulment Kasper is talking about, he makes it very clear himself, it is out and out divorce.
There can be no doubt, this is out and out heresy. The other Cardianls have called him out on this and were and are right to do so.
This is heresy, no ifs, maybes or uncertainties. This is outright public heresy.
Either Kasper is a heretic or the other Cardinals like Burke are wrong to point the finger at him They can't all be right.
mmm maybe I have missed the point or you may have missed mine, I simply felt a bit sorry for him. As I said, I don't agree with him but I see what he was trying to do. I still believe he was trying to find a way back for those who are excluded by their sin. But the way he found was not THE WAY and that's the only way. I think I may have posted this before but when St John Ogilvie was standing on the scaffold her asked for the prayers of true Catholics "But the prayers of heretics I will not have." No there's conviction for you. No messing. To the end. Having said that, just because some other crusty old dogmatists may have condemned Cardinal Kasper I do not. I condemn his heresy but not him. That's not my job. I hope he comes around to the Truth as I am sure you do too. For the record I see Cardinal Burke as the finest Knight of the Church. Nothing crusty about him.
Kasper is an OLD steam boat motor. we have newer and better motors then Casper
I am sorry I thought I heard Raymond Arroyo say he was. I am sorry I stand by what I wrote, he is a heretic.
..and at the very heart of the Church,
I must take a couple of tablets of valium before my blood pressure kills me.
I wonder what a trained theologian like Peter B would make of this all ? I must go away and rewatch this video hear what he has to say again more clamly and take it to Our Lady in prayer. Sometimes when I hear some of these people talk I have to give my head a shake and wonder if they are really saying what they are.
Terrible times. Terrible.
Kasper is wrong for sure, just we need not say he is the Popes main adviser....aka papal theologian... We need to be very clear these days
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