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Holy Mass and Apologetics

Discussion in 'The Sacraments' started by Mario, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Not long at all for such an important topic and far, far from being preachy. Thank you for taking the time and trouble to help me make some sense out of it. I don't know any "Trads". The women I see wearing veils or similar type head coverings at weekday Masses are probably better described as very devout Catholics rather than Trads. Some of them attend two Masses daily on weekdays and more on Sundays as well as all the other devotions. Other than exchanging a greeting before or after Mass, I don't really know them but as far as I can tell they don't go to EF Masses perhaps because there's really little opportunity for that here and, as far as I can tell, no great demand for it. Perhaps they would be "Trads" if the Latin Mass were available to them.

    It saddens my heart to think of our Church dividing into distinct groups similar to political divisions in the secular world.
     
  2. AED

    AED Archangels

    Well said!!
     
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  3. AED

    AED Archangels

    Don't apologize Praetorian. You have given the best diagnosis of the current state of the Church I have read yet. Cogent and keen like a surgeon's scalpel.
     
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  4. AED

    AED Archangels

    Yes Dolours me too. Saddened. We are to be "one holy Catholic apostolic Church" for all time. Perhaps this frightening fragmentation is satan's end game. It is all designed to make us lose our faith.
     
  5. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Thank you.
    I don't really like labeling and dividing the Church up into groups like that, but it seemed necessary now considering the state of the Church. I think in reality it is all just a spectrum anyway. You have people on the "left" who are so far out that they are really heretics espousing non-Catholic ideas and trying to incorporate them into the Church. On the "right" you have schismatics who are so extreme they think the entire Church has crumbled and there are no Popes anymore. I think the "center-right" is where the Trads and "St. John Paul II" Catholics (as I have called them) will meet. I hate to use "left", "right" and "center" as descriptives, but that seems the easiest way to express the factions of the Church today. We are losing our unity. Rapidly. :(
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
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  6. DivineMercy

    DivineMercy Archangels

    The majority of my life I have spent at my home parish, however I have attended many other Catholic Churches all over my country (my husband used to be a long-distance trucker). Our parish has gone through the good and the bad. One very devout priest was "sent away" by the bishop because he dared to (very, very lovingly with the most humble and genuine spirit imaginable) preach about having a summer dress code for Mass (please no mini dresses, strapless, shorts, etc). He was replaced by a priest who insisted on calling out to the congregation (after communion and before the final prayer) whoever had a birthday, come on up! Everybody clap and sing the Happy Birthday song and blow out the candle on the altar! Another priest insisted on walking up and down the aisles during the homily while having q&a sessions with the congregation, and also refused to actually say the words of absolution in the confessional (at the conclusion of confessing ones sins he would say something trite and then say go in peace, have a nice day. This happened to everyone, not just me :unsure:). Thank God, we have a really good priest right now that is very encouraging of tradition and genuine Catholic teaching. My point is that depending on the type of parish you are in, these labels will apply differently to people. A "traditionalist" at one parish may be considered a liberal at another parish. My parents were deemed a problem and traditionalists because they had to fight to have the priest hear my first confession BEFORE my first communion! Yeah, that parish said kids can make their first communion, but it's too traumatizing for them to confess their sins. I was the only kid in my first communion class who went to confession first. This is why I don't consider trads who come across as preachy or holier-than-thou to be the bigger problem. Yes, humility on their part would be way better and attract more people, but that is their personal sin and problem. The left is tearing apart the Church and making it hard to even be a Catholic within Catholics. :(
     
  7. Heidi

    Heidi Archangels

    I am one of those "John Paul II" Catholics who is waking up to the truth. I have no option to attend a traditional Mass right now, but I know I would love it.
     
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  8. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Good for you Heidi. :)
    The good news is you may not be without a Latin Mass for long! They are on the rise right now.
    There is also a move to attempt to make the Novus Ordo more reverent as well that goes all the way up to Cardinal Sarah.
    It is sort of a counter-revolution to the revolution they are trying to impose on the Church.
     
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  9. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Archangels

    I wonder if the woman wearing the frumpish hat was wearing a beret and maybe it was a believer in the condemned apparitions of Bayside
    That sounds exactly like it
    The looks and the behavior and the mind set
     
  10. Don_D

    Don_D Archangels

    In the short time we have been attending mass we have been to two parishes. One was very liberal and was nothing like I remembered going to the few times we went to mass as a child. I liked the mass somewhat but grew tired of hearing about the Seahawks and baseball teams during the homily. I was pretty discouraged also when we reached out to be contacted as new members and we never had anyone call or email us. We received tithing envelopes though, several times in fact.

    We found another Parish a little further away that is night and day different from the first. No girl alter boys, majority of people accepting the Eucharist on the tongue, many women in veils, etc. I feel like a liberal there lol. But in all honesty it is much more our speed. I knew I was in the right place when I went to confession (shouldn't have at the time but it was before I had spoken with anyone) and the line was long. Also, there is a reverence there that I notice the minute I enter.

    We watched a man there last week playing with his phone all through the mass though. I hope that one of the ushers or elders caught it and spoke with him. It was really distracting.
     
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  11. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    I think people, including clergy, are actually daring to think aloud that Vatican II and its changes were a huge disaster :cautious:
     
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  12. Heidi

    Heidi Archangels

    Maybe he was looking at the Mass readings on his phone, or the rosary?
     
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  13. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    https://onepeterfive.com/bishop-schneider-10-elements-of-renewal-in-the-liturgy/

    Bishop Schneider: 10 Elements of Renewal in the Liturgy
    [​IMG] Steve Skojec May 30, 2017 70 Comments
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    Dominus Est, by Bishop Athanasius Schneider, p. 34

    On February 14, 2015, Bishop Athanasius Schneider of Astana, Kazakhstan, was sponsored by the Paulus Institute to give a talk in Washington, DC. During the talk, he proposed concrete actions — ten essential elements — which should be implemented to accomplish liturgical renewal.

    As an attendee, I was impressed once again by his excellency’s concern for reverence and piety in Catholic worship. Because of the deep value of the insights he presented, I would like to offer to you my own summary of his principle themes.

    The bishop instructed that ever since apostolic times, the Church sought to have holy liturgy, and that it is only through the action of the Holy Spirit that one can truly adore Christ. Exterior gestures of adoration that express interior reverence are vital within the context of the liturgy. These include bowing, genuflections, prostrations, and the like. His excellency cited St. John Chrysostom’s writings on liturgy, particularly focusing on the following theme: The liturgy of the Church is a participation in and must be modeled upon the heavenly liturgy of the angels.

    The notion of heavenly liturgy, and our participation in it at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, offers some perspective to those of us who may be tempted to take for granted the incredible miracle in our midst. The reality is that each Catholic church is, itself, a place wherein dwell angels, archangels, the kingdom of God, and God’s own Heavenly Self. If we were somehow able to be transported to the heavenly liturgy, we would not dare speak even to those we know and love. When we are within a Church, we should therefore speak reservedly, and then only of sacred things.

    In the early church, the altar and other sacred items were veiled out of respect for the sacred mystery in which they played a role. There was not, contrary to popular belief in our present time, a versus populum celebration of Mass or even a widespread practice of communion in the hand. The priest and the people faced together towards God in the liturgical East.

    When we celebrate liturgy, it is God who must be at the center. The incarnate God. Christ. Nobody else. Not even the priest who acts in His place.

    It impoverishes the liturgy when we reduce the signs and gestures of adoration. Any liturgical renewal must therefore restore these and bring about a more Christocentric and transcendent character of the earthly liturgy which is more reminiscent of the angelic liturgy.



    Ten Elements of Renewal

    Bishop Schneider offered these 10 points of implementation which he views as fundamental for liturgical renewal (audio begins at 27 minutes):

    1. The tabernacle, where Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God, is really present under the species of bread should be placed in the center of the sanctuary,because in no other sign on this earth is God, the Emmanuel, so really present and so near to man as in the tabernacle. The tabernacle is the sign indicating and containing the Real Presence of Christ and should therefore be closer to the altar and constitute with the altar the one central sign indicating the Eucharistic mystery. The Sacrament of the Tabernacle and the Sacrifice of the Altar should therefore not be opposed or separated, but both in the central place and close together in the sanctuary. All the attention of those who enter a church should spontaneously be directed towards the tabernacle and the altar.

    2. During the Eucharistic liturgy – at the very least during the Eucharistic prayer – when Christ the Lamb of God is immolated, the face of the priest should not be seen by the faithful. Even the Seraphim cover their faces (Isaiah 6:2) when adoring God. Instead, the face of the priest should be turned toward the cross, the icon of the crucified God.

    3. During the liturgy, there should be more signs of adoration — specifically genuflections — especially each time the priest touches the consecrated host.

    4. The faithful approaching to receive the Lamb of God in Holy Communion should greet and receive Him with an act of adoration, kneeling. Which moment in the life of the faithful is more sacred than this moment of encounter with the Lord?

    5. There should be more room for silence during the liturgy, especially during those moments which most fully express the mystery of the redemption. Especially when the sacrifice of the cross is made present during the Eucharistic prayer.

    (cont'd)
     
  14. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    6. There should be more exterior signs which express the dependence of the priest on Christ, the High Priest, which would more clearly show that the words the priest speaks (ie., “Dominus Vobiscum“) and the blessings he offers to the faithful depend on and flow out from Christ the High Priest, not from him, the private person. Not “I greet you” or “I bless you” but “I the Lord” do these things. Christ. Such signs could be (as was practiced for centuries) the kissing of the altar before greeting the people to indicate that this love flows not from the priest but from the altar; and also before blessing, to kiss the altar, and then bless the people. (This was practiced for millennium, and unfortunately in the new rite has been abolished.) Also, bowing towards the altar cross to indicate that Christ is more important than the priest. Often in the liturgy — in the old rite — when a priest expressed the name of Jesus, he had to turn to the cross and make a bow to show that the attention should be on Christ, not him.

    7. There should be more signs which express the unfathomable mystery of the redemption. This could be achieved through the veiling of liturgical objects, because veiling is an act of the liturgy of the angels. Veiling the chalice, veiling the paten with the humeral veil, the veiling of the corporal, veiling the hands of the bishop when he celebrates a solemnity, The use of communion rails, also, to veil the altar. Also signs – signs of the cross by the priest and the faithful. Making signs of the cross during the priest by the Eucharistic prayer and by the faithful during other moments of the liturgy; when we are signing ourselves with the cross it is a sign of blessing. In the ancient liturgy, three times during the Gloria, the Credo, and the Sanctus, the faithful made the sign of the cross. These are expressions of the mystery.

    8. There should be a constant sign which expresses the mystery also by means of human language – that is to say, Latin is a sacred language demanded by the Second Vatican Council in celebration of every holy Mass and in each place a part of the Eucharistic prayer should always be said in Latin.

    9. All those who exercise an active role in the liturgy, such as lectors, or those announcing the prayer of the faithful, should always be dressed in the liturgical vestments; and only men, no women, because this is an exercise in the sanctuary, close to the priesthood. Even reading the lectionary is directed towards this liturgy which we are celebrating to Christ. And therefore only men dressed in liturgical vestments should be in the sanctuary.

    10. The music and the songs during the liturgy should more truly reflect the sacred character and should resemble the song of the angels, like the Sanctus, in order to be really more able to sing with one voice with the angels. Not only the sanctus, but the entire Holy Mass. It would be necessary that the heart, mind and voice of the priest and the faithful be directed towards The Lord. And that this would be manifested by exterior signs and gestures as well.

    There is a great deal to reflect on here. Each of these ten points seems, to me at least, indispensable in our pursuit of truly reverent worship in our churches. None of these points is incompatible with either the Church’s ancient liturgy or, perhaps more importantly, with the liturgy envisioned by the Council Fathers in Sacrosanctum Concilium.

    It would be a tremendous blessing if more bishops would take up these ten points as essential guidelines for liturgy in their dioceses. I encourage you to send them along to your own bishop for his consideration. There were more treasures in the Q&A, which I have elected not to transcribe due to the length. (If you are interested in the full audio of the talk, see below.)

    I also had the opportunity to meet briefly with the bishop at the conclusion of his talk. When I thanked him for his leadership in a time where it seems so many of our shepherds are not speaking with clear voices for the teachings of the Church, he said to me, “It is you who must do this. You, the faithful, your families. You must be holy. You must teach the faith to your children. You must inspire the priests.” On the subject of vocations, he said that we must offer our children to God if we wish for them to receive a call. It would seem that with this advice — paired with the concrete suggestions he previously offered in his article published earlier this year — he is calling on us, the laity, to begin a holiness revolution if we wish to see reform the Church.

    It seems we had better get started.

    [​IMG]
    His Excellency, Bishop Athanasius Schneider and Steve Skojec

    UPDATE: We originally included a personal voice recording of the talk, but the Paul King of the Paulus Institute (the organizers of the talk) has kindly brought to my attention that a video of the bishop’s lecture is now available, so we have replaced the audio recording with it:




    There is also an interview with Bishop Schneider taken on the same occasion:




    Originally published on March 16, 2015
     
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  15. Don_D

    Don_D Archangels

    Good point. I should have thought of this, I spent 25 years in a tech field. :(
     
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  16. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I would be surprised if she had heard of Bayside because it got no attention here. I had never heard of it before joining this forum. My guess is that she decided to set an example by showing the rest of us what reverence looks like although she couldn't know how many in the Church would prefer to kneel but couldn't. I have seen people kneel on the odd occasion but it is very difficult in our Church. The Church was completely remodelled so there is nothing to provide support or leverage of any kind for those who would prefer to kneel. Imagine shuffling along in a queue on the street, suddenly arriving at the top of the queue and trying to kneel while sticking out your tongue, and then getting back on your feet to walk away. You would have to be very agile to manage that without causing a distraction.

    Much as I dislike the sign of peace, rudeness towards someone offering to shake hands is not a suitable way to express disapproval.

    In truth, over-zealous traditionalists are the least of the Church's troubles these days. We've always had people who liked to appear holier than everyone else just as we've always had people who act as though the priest and everyone else at Mass should be grateful they showed up. All of that pales in comparison with some of the statements emanating from people with authority in the Church. I'm sorry now that I mentioned it because it's a distraction.
     
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  17. DivineMercy

    DivineMercy Archangels

    Exactly. Moderists are trying to use a magician's slight of hand trick to distract from what is actually going on. It's the "watch this, look here" while the trick itself is happening elsewhere.
     
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  18. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Yes, watch those young people who are too attached to tradition because they could have psychological problems; look at those old clerics resisting the "Spirit" of change; we don't need to keep talking about abortion and gay marriage; climate change is the greatest threat. Look at these rigorists; look at those diehards; look at the weather; look here , there and anywhere except at those with the sacred duty of defending the Deposit of Faith and passing it on intact.
     
  19. AED

    AED Archangels

    Kind of reminds of my father, God rest his soul, saying in 1968 when he cast his vote for Nixon after being a life long Democrat: "I didn't leave the Democrats. They left me." I feel that way. The conciliar Church has left me. I am still a Roman Catholic. I haven't changed. They have. And they've turned themselves into pretzels to justify all their disobedience and heresy.
     
  20. DivineMercy

    DivineMercy Archangels

    I'm a post- conciliar baby, but I feel the same way. I thank Jesus and Mary for opening my eyes and heart to the modernists/liberalism that has invaded the Church. It is definitely of Satan and not of God. My choir has been trying to bring back appropriate liturgical music, and so far it's been going decently, although we've lost a few members over it (apparently chant is only beautiful if a choir of monks are doing it (n)). I was shocked this weekend because our choir was the only English mass (out of 3) that sang hymns specifically for Pentecost. It's so sad how the Mass has been trampled on for decades now. The offenses and sacrileges committed against the Mass and sacraments are atrocious :cry:
     
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