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Holy Mass and Apologetics

Discussion in 'The Sacraments' started by Mario, Jun 22, 2014.

  1. Mario

    Mario Powers

    'Lex orandi, lex credendi' ; in other words, the way we pray is the way we believe...

    This line is from a post of Padraig's from almost four years ago. It highlights the fact that if one went to daily Mass for the three years of the liturgical cycle, then one would discover the truths of the Catholic Faith so as to convincingly respond to most of her critics. For instance, to those who claim we teach that salvation is by works, then listen to the Collect from this past Wednesday:

    O God, strength of those who hope in you, graciously hear our pleas,
    and, since without you human frailty can do nothing, grant us always the help of your grace,
    that in following your commands we may please you by our resolve and our deeds.
    Through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son...

    Redemption's goal was not just to save us, but to form us as God's obedient children!

    Thank you Lord God and Mother Church for the prayers of Holy Mass! Alleluia!

    Safe in the Barque of Peter!
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2014
  2. Mario

    Mario Powers

    Here is another beautiful example of learning our Faith through the prayers of the Church. Protestants often say that Catholics claim to crucify Jesus anew at each Holy Mass.

    Not so!

    The following Preface is said during Easter Time.

    It is truly right and just, our duty and our salvation,
    at all times to acclaim you, O Lord,
    but in this time above all to laud you yet more gloriously,
    when Christ our Passover has been sacrificed.
    He never ceases to offer himself for us
    but defends us and ever pleads our cause before you:
    he is the sacrificial Victim who dies no more,
    the Lamb, once slain, who lives for ever.

    Therefore, overcome with paschal joy,
    every land, every people exults in your praise
    and even the heavenly Powers, with the angelic hosts,
    sing together the unending hymn of your glory,
    as they acclaim:
    Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts . . .

    In Holy Mass, it is the Lord who draws us into the Paschal Mystery so that we become mystically present to His dying and rising! What a gift! Alleluia!

    Safe in the Barque of Peter!
  3. jerry

    jerry Angels

    I had wanted to add to this thread with an article i had read about the mangling of the collects that came about with the Paul IV missal. But i have yet to find it.

    Since reading the article i have paid more attention to this opening prayer.
    Today's collect for the feast of St Peter and St Paul does not read very well i thought.


    O God, who on the Solemnity of the Apostles Peter and Paul

    give us the noble and holy joy of this day,

    grant, we pray, that your Church

    may in all things follow the teaching

    of those through whom she received

    the beginnings of right religion.

    Through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son,

    who lives and reigns with you in the unity of the Holy Spirit,

    one God, for ever and ever.

    Pasted from <http://www.liturgies.net/saints/peterandpaul/mass.htm#day>

    I am pleased to discover that Fr Z has an article on it.

    The Collect for the Novus Ordo the the Mass of the Solemnity of Sts Peter and Paul is in part inspired by that of the parallel prayer in the 1962 Missale Romanum. However, it seems also to be a new creation, though not entirely new.

    Deus, qui huius diei venerandam
    sanctamque laetitiam in apostolorum
    Petri et Pauli sollemnitate tribuisti,
    da Ecclesiae tuae
    eorum in omnibus sequi praeceptum,
    per quos religionis sumpsit exordium.

    The last part, “eorum in omnibus sequi praeceptum, per quos religionis sumpsit exordium” is in the 1962MR Collect. But the first part is a new composition, based on some ancient patters of prayers for feasts of other apostles.

    I think what we have going on here has little to do with continuity. The architects of the Novus Ordo wanted to express something quite different from what the 1962 Collect expressed. The first part of the 1962MR prayer speaks of the martyrdom of Sts. Peter and Paul.

    There is a usage in late Latin of sumo and exordium, which is surely at work here: “to make a beginning”.

    Since this seems to be a fairly new prayer we have a little flexibility with very complex religio. Let’s refer to the great Lewis & Short Dictionary: “Reverence for God (the gods), the fear of God, connected with a careful pondering of divine things; piety, religion, both pure inward piety and that which is manifested in religious rites and ceremonies; hence the rites and ceremonies, as well as the entire system of religion and worship, the res divinae or sacrae, were frequently called religio or religiones“. On the other hand, the source for liturigcal Latin Blaise/Dumas suggests merely: “piete”and “religion”. Religio in our context needs a word or phrase that gets at the external express or our interior attitude.


    O God, who for the solemnity of the
    apostles Peter and Paul
    bestowed the holy and venerable joy of this day,
    grant to Your Church
    to follow in all things their instruction
    through whom she made a beginning of the life of faith.
  4. Miriam

    Miriam Archangels

    Last Sunday was the first time I've ever been to a Tridentine Latin Mass, and I loved it - so much so that I've ordered a 1962 missale and hope to go every Sunday from now on (God willing). It was a humbling and spiritual experience.
  5. padraig

    padraig New Member

    My father was buried in the Tridentine Rite, Miriam. One thing I noticed was that many young people who attended commented how much they loved it. This came as a surprise to me. I don't quite know why they loved it, maybe there is more drama or sense of theatre?

    Pope Benedict I think was trying to restore it to a higher place, but I suppose he hadn't the energy or power to push against the way things are.

    I go to mass every day. If I had a choice would I choose the Tridentine over the Novus Ordo? You know I don't really know. But I would like to have a choice. I wonder why within the Church there is a lack of tolerance for the Tridentine Rite? If they don't like it, that's fine , but there seems to be a real antagonism towards it.

    Funny I noticed one little thing that touched me at the funeral, they use a large embroidered cloth to cover the coffin, somehow I liked that. Its funny how the mind works, my mind went back to the Tridentine Rite in the old, 'Godfather' movies and I kind of smiled.

    I can't say I am a great enthusiast, but as I say, I would like the choice..at least to try it out some more.

    One thing always gives me pause. Padre Pio never said the Novus Ordo Mass, he got special permission from Rome to stick with the Tridentine Mass till he died. For me Padre Pio is kind of like Moses on Mount Sinai so this gives me considerable pause for thought.

  6. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Oh thank goodness I checked. The bit about Padre Pio is wrong. Shows how careful you should be.

    'Padre Pio indeed never celebrated the revised Mass, and for a very good reason:

    • He died in 1968, a year before Pope Paul instituted it.

    From 1965 to 1968, priests were free to say Mass according to the classic form; alternatively, they could use the "interim" version (i.e., the same thing, translated
    into the vernacular).

    When Paul VI did institute the new 1970 Missal, he offered indults for elderly priests to say the old Mass, privately. If Padre Pio had lived to see that day, he might well have sought and obtained that permission.

    However, I am confident that he would have obediently said his public Masses in the revised form. Blessed Padre Pio taught his spiritual children many times, both in word
    and by example, that obedience is an indispensable virtue.'
    Booklady, josephite, Mario and 2 others like this.
  7. Mario

    Mario Powers

    Often, Protestants incorrectly claim that Catholics are taught that we must earn our way to heaven by good works. This claim is incorrect. The Church does teach that we merit heaven. Isn't that the same? No. Some beautiful prayers from Holy Mass during the month of August clarify the source of merit:

    Tuesday of the 20th Week in Ordinary Time


    O God, who have prepared for those who love you good things which no eye has seen,
    fill our hearts, we pray, with the warmth of your love, so that,
    loving you in all things and above all things, we may attain your promises,
    which surpass every human desire, Through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son...

    Prayer Over the Offerings

    Receive our oblation, O Lord, by which is brought about a glorious exchange, that,
    by offering what you have given, we may merit to receive your very self. Through Christ our Lord.

    Isn't this amazing! In the first prayer God promises unsurpassing good gifts. And why? Because we have loved Him with the love that He put in our hearts in the first place! Wow! The second prayer expresses the same thought. It speaks of a glorious exchange, but notice: we receive the Lord Himself by offering up what God has given to us in the first place! And look at the Collect from the Friday of the 21st Week in Ordinary Time below. It's God who has clothed us, inflamed us with His love, and conformed us to His image! And the result? We merit a share in eternal redemption! Yes, we are responsible for our choices and actions, but these prayers wonderfully reveal that it is God Who initiates and brings to completion. Alleluia!:)


    Clothe us, Lord God, with the virtues of the Heart of your Son and set us aflame with his love, that,
    conformed to his image, we may merit a share in eternal redemption
    Through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son...

    How rightly Paul writes in the first reading on the following Saturday:

    1Cor 1: 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. 30 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption; 31 therefore, as it is written, "Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord."

    Alleluia! :ROFLMAO:

    Safe on the Father's Lap!
    Don_D, josephite, Sam and 2 others like this.
  8. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    Benedict XVI: Erasing God from liturgy has put Church ‘in danger’
    Pete Baklinski
    ROME, April 19, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) -- A mistaken liturgical reform following Vatican II that emphasized human “activity and creativity” in place of giving “priority” to God has jeopardized the very existence of the Catholic Church, according to Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI.

    “In such a situation, it becomes ever clearer that the existence of the Church lives on the just celebration of the liturgy, and that the Church is in danger when the primacy of God does not appear anymore in the liturgy, and therefore in life,” he wrote in the preface to the newly released Russian edition of the Opera Omnia (complete works) of Benedict XVI / Ratzinger.

    “The deepest cause of the crisis that has subverted the Church is located in the effacing of the priority of God in the liturgy,” he added, according to a translation provided by Rorate Caeli.

    Benedict, who just turned 90, said that the “absolute priority” that Catholics should give to attending mass over and above any other consideration has been lost.

    “In the conscience of the men of today, the things of God — and with this the liturgy — do not appear urgent, in fact,” he said.

    “There is urgency for every possible thing. The things of God do not ever seem urgent. […] If God is no longer important, the criteria to establish what is important are changed. Man, by setting God aside, submits his own self to constraints that render him a slave to material forces and that are therefore opposed to his dignity,” he added.

    The Pope Emeritus said that he dedicated himself to the theme of the liturgy after witnessing after the Vatican II Council how a man-centered liturgy “led almost to forgetting of the presence of God.”

    “I knew that the true renewal of the liturgy is a fundamental condition for the renewal of the Church,” he said.

    It has now been 10 years since Benedict issued his motu proprio Summorum Pontificum, an edict that restored the use of the Traditional Latin Mass, allowing priests to use the ancient form without having to request permission from their bishop.

    Cardinal Robert Sarah, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, said in a March 31 address that Pope Benedict showed a path forward to rediscovering authentic liturgy by opening the door to the “extraordinary” form of the mass which he said the pope hoped would help “enrich” the ordinary form of the mass.

    “Now, it is enough to pick up [Vatican II's] Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy again and to read it honestly, without betraying its meaning, to see that the true purpose of the Second Vatican Council was not to start a reform that could become the occasion for a break with Tradition, but quite the contrary, to rediscover and to confirm Tradition in its deepest meaning,” Sarah said at that time.

    “It must be reaffirmed that Vatican Council II never asked to make tabula rasa (blank slate) of the past and therefore to abandon the Missal said to be of Saint Pius V,” he added.

    Sarah said that the liturgy called for by Vatican II has yet to be realized and many places in the world.

    Following the lead provided by Pope Benedict in his Summorum Pontificum, Sarah said he would like to see the relaunch of a “liturgical movement.” Not one that is based on what he called the “ravings of some theologians who long for ‘novelties,’ but one based on a disposition towards discovering God in silence, adoration, and though a proper liturgical formation based on the teachings of the Church.

    Booklady, Don_D and Sanctus like this.
  9. josephite

    josephite Powers

    I believe our beautiful MoG forum family member 'Miriam' [may she rest in peace], is asking God [whether in heaven or purgatory] to Bless Our Holy Father Pope Francis, now, with even more fervor.

    Miriam's signature below.........


    Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us and on the whole world
    God bless Pope Francis!


    Dearest Miriam please continue to pray for all of the MoG forum members now, as we also pray for you.

    Eternal rest grant unto Miriam Oh Lord, and may Perpetual light shine upon her and may she rest in peace. Amen.
    Booklady, Ed Kleese, Mario and 2 others like this.
  10. Mario

    Mario Powers


    What a fantastic article!

    Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
    Booklady and SgCatholic like this.
  11. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    The 2 lines that stood out for me:

    [The Pope Emeritus said that he dedicated himself to the theme of the liturgy after witnessing after the Vatican II Council how a man-centered liturgy “led almost to forgetting of the presence of God.

    Cardinal Robert Sarah, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, said in a March 31 address that Pope Benedict showed a path forward to rediscovering authentic liturgy by opening the door to the “extraordinary” form of the mass which he said the pope hoped would help “enrich” the ordinary form of the mass.]

    So the pivotal event that changed things was Vatican II.
    And the traditional Latin mass is the key to rediscovering God in our liturgy.
    I must, I must, I must go to the TLM. The only one available in my country is on Sundays at 3pm. How I wish it were in the morning instead.
    Booklady and Mac like this.
  12. Mario

    Mario Powers


    There are faithful Catholics who attend the Extraordinary Form (TLM); and yes, its strict norms and rubrics help maintain the priority of God in the Liturgy.

    But I have studied the history after the Council. The Novus Ordo is a valid Mass; however, I believe it was undermined by illicit innovation in many dioceses.

    So I would differ with you. The pivotal event was not Vatican II; rather the implementation that followed the Council was hijacked by "progressives" who largely ignored sections of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy and illicitly shaped the Novus Ordo according to their rebellious designs. The result in many places is the man-centered Liturgy that Pope Benedict decried.:cry:

    So we have two choices: find orthodox priests who reverently celebrate the Novus Ordo as one properly should, or seek out the TLM. Both can be difficult. If you are so led, by all means seek out the Extraordinary Form.:)

    Safe in the Flames of the Sacred Heart!
    Booklady, Dolours, Light and 4 others like this.
  13. fallen saint

    fallen saint Baby steps :)

    Good minds think alike. And they also like alike.


    Inside note to my brother :)
    Ed Kleese likes this.
  14. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"


    Attached Files:

  15. Mario

    Mario Powers

    Praetorian and Mac like this.
  16. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    An article on Cardinal Robert Sarah. For some time I thought that Benedict's emphasis on liturgical tradition was a bit too traditionlist, but I have come to understand why it is so important, and Sarah explains it well. It is because our liturgaical tradition teaches us that God, and our adoration to Him, is what should be at the very center of our lives, because all grace to do the good we may do is rooted in the Eucharist. None of them say new developments aren't possible, but they emphasize that we can simply not relegate to the past our liturgical tradition.

    Cardinal Sarah and the Innovators
    Fr. Gerald Murray

    Robert Cardinal Sarah recently gave an address that bears the image of a prophetic warning about the nature of the Church’s present crisis of faith. He says plainly and without hesitation numerous things that are certain to inspire many – and to annoy many others. I am sure he aims at both effects. His indictment harkens back to the title of his first book, God or Nothing. Catholics inflict great harm upon the Church when they exalt themselves and put their own theories above God and his revealed doctrines.

    This attitude, seen in all areas of the life of the Church, is most plainly manifest in the liturgical realm. Cardinal Sarah states:

    "As Benedict XVI often emphasized, at the root of the liturgy is adoration, and therefore God. Hence it is necessary to recognize that the serious, profound crisis that has affected the liturgy and the Church itself since the Council is due to the fact that its CENTER is no longer God and the adoration of Him, but rather men and their alleged ability to ‘do’ something to keep themselves busy during the Eucharistic celebrations."


    Cardinal Sarah continues:

    "Even today, a significant number of Church leaders underestimate the serious crisis that the Church is going through: relativism in doctrinal, moral, and disciplinary teaching, grave abuses, the desacralization and trivialization of the Sacred Liturgy, a merely social and horizontal view of the Church’s mission.

    Many believe and declare, loud and long, that Vatican Council II brought about a true springtime in the Church. Nevertheless, a growing number of Church leaders see this “springtime” as a rejection, a renunciation of her centuries-old heritage, or even as a radical questioning of her past and Tradition. Political Europe is rebuked for abandoning or denying its Christian roots. But the first to have abandoned her Christian roots and past is indisputably the post-Conciliar Catholic Church."


    "Many refuse to face up to the Church’s work of self-destruction through the deliberate demolition of her doctrinal, liturgical, moral, and pastoral foundations. While more and more voices of high-ranking prelates stubbornly affirm obvious doctrinal, moral and liturgical errors that have been condemned a hundred times and work to demolish the little faith remaining in the people of God, while the bark of the Church furrows the stormy sea of this decadent world and the waves crash down on the ship, so that it is already filling with water, a growing number of Church leaders and faithful shout: “Tout va très bien, Madame la Marquise!” [“Everything is just fine, Milady,” the refrain of a popular comic song from the 1930’s, in which the employees of a noblewoman report to her a series of catastrophes]."

    For some in the Church today, Catholic doctrine is subject to rewriting, liturgical worship of God is primarily a chance for people to assemble and express themselves, Catholic moral teaching is now to be considered an example of outmoded rigorism, and pastoral care of the faithful means telling them to do whatever they want as long as it makes them “happy.”

    But are we really happy when we reject Our Lord’s teachings and try to convince ourselves that that is what Our Lord would want us to do? Is it not rather the case that any such manipulation of the truth of Christ produces a spirit of anxiety and bitterness that inexorably manifests itself in a frenzied attempt to tear down the rest of Catholic teaching and practice?

    It really does come down to God or Nothing.

  17. Light

    Light Angels


    I agree with your sentiments almost 100%; the only innovation I would keep is use of the vernacular in the Mass. It gives greater freedom to more fully participate in the reality of the Mass.

    One thing that irked me in the Latin Mass was some prayers said by the priest in whispers.. maybe there is a reason for this?

    God Bless
    Dolours, fallen saint and josephite like this.
  18. Mario

    Mario Powers


    That's why I believe it is not a TLM vs. Novus Ordo, but that the worship of God is primary and exalted. I have reservations about the Novus Ordo, but here are a couple of reasons I treasure it. First, when we consider the 3-yr cycle of Sunday readings and the 2-yr cycle for daily readings, do you realize that every three years about 90% of the Bible is proclaimed. That is definitely a plus, much more so than the TLM cycle.

    Second, though I wish the priest wouldn't always face the congregation, when he does the ritual act of fracturing that occurs immediately before the Lamb of God can be clearly seen. For me, this is very special. Just as the separate consecration of bread and wine signifies the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary, the act of fracturing and the placing of a small piece of the Sacred Host in the chalice signifies the Resurrection. Love it!

    Safe in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary!
    Booklady, Light, fallen saint and 3 others like this.
  19. josephite

    josephite Powers

    Dearest Mario,

    Believe it or not I had a dream last night that I am now contemplating which is so poignant to what you have mentioned above.

    In the dream I was aware that I was following Our Lady on the dolorous way of the cross and I could see Our Lord at times and there seemed to be two things that were happening even as Jesus carried His cross.

    I could not understand the second thing of these two things!

    The first being the torture and death of God in the flesh and this awesome and singularly stupendous event spilled over and affected nature as we read in the gospels but also I was shown another secondary event that was occuring but I was not sure what this was!

    I asked my angel to reveal this to me but I didn't get a plausible audible answer in the dream, all that kept happening was the earth and all the surroundings’ were changing and snippets of time were flooding in and around the crucifixion.

    It was as if 'time was fractured'!

    So I think the Lord was showing me that space and 'time' were somehow fractured at the crucifixion of God!

    Also in the dream the three days from Good Friday to Easter Sunday [that time perion], were like held in suspension!

    To me it seemed that when our Lord Rose on Sunday, time mended!

    Your above post where you mention.............. the act of fracturing and the placing of a small piece of the Sacred Host in the chalice signifies the Resurrection!

    Is magnificent! and has helped me understand the significance of what the Lord was showing me in the dream.

    God is so good! I think he used you, way over there in America to answer part of a puzzle he gave me last night at the other end of the world in Australia!

    God Bless you Mario and your family.
    Don_D, Dolours, Light and 2 others like this.
  20. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    Why did the Church not halt or correct these errors of the progressives then? Why did the clergy at the top simply stand by and see altars and tabernacles shifted, statues removed and destroyed, altar railings removed, communion in the hand vs on the tongue, while standing and not kneeling, etc without saying or doing anything to make everyone remain faithful to the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy?

    My view is similar to that of Cardinal Sarah's:


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