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For your discernment (From Direction for our Times):

Discussion in 'Marian Apparitions' started by lynnfiat, Dec 2, 2016.

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  1. lynnfiat

    lynnfiat Fiat Voluntas Tua

    Dear lay apostles,

    You should really look at or read this talk. The subject matter may affect us all.

    God bless,

    Fr. Darragh

     
    Mario likes this.
  2. Carmel333

    Carmel333 Archangels

    mmm.... Well it is the POPE who is causing confusion, and this "lay apostle" calling the attempt to clarify what the Pope's meaning "a bad spirit" is wrong. Those Bishops are attempting to have the Pope clarify his confusing statements in regard to Church doctrine. I don't think at this point we can call anyone in the situation "evil". We can only wait and see the fruits of this Pope, which may take a little while yet.
     
  3. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Indeed. I got as far as the part where she claimed that "people harbouring the wrong spirit are not willing to be obedient". Our Lord Jesus Christ has first claim on our obedience, and His language on the subject of marriage, divorce and adultery couldn't be clearer. Let's not forget, either, that when Jesus proclaimed the permanence of the marriage bond, he was talking to people whose religious superiors already permitted divorce and remarriage.

    I have a dreadful feeling in the pit of my stomach that in the not too distant future the title "Lay Apostle" will develop into "Deaconess". God help us if this is the quality of what will be inflicted on us as a result of women with clerical ambitions.
     
    gracia, Seagrace, little me and 2 others like this.
  4. Mario

    Mario Powers

    lynnfiat,

    A couple of reactions. First, I love the simplicity of her definition of humility- knowing one's place. Now, the four cardinals in question do have the role of advising the Pope, even if it's a questioning role. In my heart, however, their going public with the dubia might have possessed a degree of frustration and pride, a reaction to the Holy Father's apparent silence. I say might because I can't read hearts. On the other hand, Anne seems to believe their actions are rooted in pride and therefore are necessarily adversarial (I'm uncomfortable with that). I pray that there is no decision to revoke the cardinals of their title of cardinal, because that would move a schism even closer. Lord, let prudence and wisdom prevail!

    Second, I agree wholeheartedly that in drawing the divorced and remarried back into the life of the Church, a merciful accompaniment is crucial. But I notice the qualities listed in such an accompaniment did not include the element of repentance. Can there be an accompaniment without repentance, an acknowledgement, that even if the parties were ignorant of the steps needed to allow for this second union, the choice they made was manifestly evil in God's eyes? I think not.

    I am reminded of St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 5 who orders a brother who was in an irregular relationship to be removed from the community. In 2 Corinthians, Paul asks for them to welcome him back:

    6 Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority, 7 so that on the contrary you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.

    Initially, the offense was grievous enough to exclude him. Now Paul asks them to extend forgiveness. But repentance must proceed forgiveness, so I'm assuming that the sorrow of the offender mentioned in v.7 above is just not sorrow over the separation but sorrow also over the sin which prompted the exclusion in the first place. So the separation helped to produce the desired effect.

    And so I believe the accompaniment in our own day should necessarily include repentance on the couple's part so that integration can proceed. Then the nullification of the first union can be addressed.

    In conclusion: humility, yes. Secondly, repentance leading to integration in the second instance.

    God bless Pope Francis!

    Safe in the Barque of Peter!



     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
    lynnfiat, sparrow, Seagrace and 3 others like this.
  5. djmoforegon

    djmoforegon Archangels

    Very well said, Mario. This is my belief also.
     
  6. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    When speaking on faith and morals clarity is of the utmost importance, so that no doubt may remain in the minds of the faithful as to what is the Will of God. One can debate whether the tactis of the 4 Cardinals was good, bad or indifferent, but what they are asking for (and have been ignored) is not unreasonable, as it deals with doctrine, which can never change, not Church discipline which can change.
     
  7. Harper

    Harper Guest

    Weren't we supposed to take a "time out" from the discussion of the Pope, the four cardinals and the dubia? I remember there was a vote on whether to take a break from posting and most members of MOG wanted to continue but to stop discussing the Pope and the battle between liberals and conservatives. And here we are, just a short time later, back at it in an "Anne, a lay apostle" thread.

    BTW: Wasn't there a big blow-up with Anne, Sister Breige McKenna, Fr. Scallon, a few years back? She was disavowed by them, I believe. So many messengers and so many scandals these days!
     
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  8. IHM

    IHM New Member

    I find this woman naive. Popes are beholden to the established and accepted Tradition of the Church. The papacy is in the service of the Tradition. The truths of the faith do not change.

    She assumes bad intent by Burke and the other cardinals who just want clarity for a frankly confusing document, a document that presents serious confusion with respect to the clear teaching of John Paul II.

    What is wrong with accompaniment and discernment? Nothing at all, as long as it always takes place within the context of objective truth. If pastors allow the faithful to contravene the objective moral law (receiving the Eucharist while in a state of adultery) in the name of "accompaniment" and "discernment", this is a real problem. It would be an institutionalization of sacrilege, and will cry out to God. A person in mortal sin may not receive Holy Communion. So you can accompany and discern with the divorced and civilly remarried, but at the end of the day they must not be allowed to receive until they engage the Sacrament of Penance. This is not a lack of mercy, but a call to real healing for them.

    The teachings of Christ regarding adultery are hard, but they are meant for our protection and healing. Pastoral care cannot be divorced from doctrinal truth. John Paul II said as much.

    Bottom line: make no mistake, there is a real crisis in the Church because of Amoris Laetitia, and the four cardinals and their supporters are right to seek clarification. It is for the good of souls. This woman falsely makes them out to be disobedient, which is a violation of charity.
     
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  9. IHM

    IHM New Member

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