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Don't hate me, just questioning

Discussion in 'Marian Apparitions' started by Dean, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    Wbtw,

    Thank you, methodical is a good word but I wish I had the full insight and understanding of all the prophecies.

    I just realized that you are a brand new member, wow, welcome!

    Thank you for answering my questions, so you are referring to the Pope's general openness to all people, his discussions of mercy and love, etc. He is difficult to fully understand, at times. Although, I don't think we may ever fully understand each other, at least not the way that Christ does.

    The Medjugorje messages appear to be beautiful when you speak of them, truly. Has there ever been discussion of hell in the messages as the Fatima messages did?

    I have another question about Medjugore, I read that the seers have not been given all 10 secrets yet and that they cannot give us any of the secrets until they have them all, is this correct? I think that there is no date/time given for when they will release the secrets either, correct? Thank you very much.
     
  2. ComeSoon!

    ComeSoon! Mercy & Discernment

    As I have been following this to some extent since 2013 when I first learned of it, I have become aware that over the years, the 6 visionaries have evolved to be given personal ministries of prayer focus related to their visits, which I believe are now all monthly (if not in some cases- yearly). Mirjana is charged with particularly praying for and minitering to unbelievers, Vicka, I believe is charged with praying for healing, etc. I can't say regarding the others.
     
    Carol55 likes this.
  3. MMM

    MMM Principalities

    It probably is real but my interest in it is near zero. Supposed secrects to be revealed at some unknown future time isn't worth the time or brain cells.


    Just hang on the secrects are going to be announced any day now, should be soon, maybe a couple more months or years, ok maybe decades or possibly never..........
     
  4. In November 1981, the seers Jacov and Vicka physically left Jacov's home with the Virgin and they were shown Heaven, Purgatory and Hell. This is an account of that experience http://medjugorjecouncil.ie/jakov-vicka-taken-heaven-purgatory-hell/ In addition, Mirjana once asked the Virgin why souls would have to be condemned to hell forever and the Virgin answered that those souls ceased to think of God lovingly. They hated God and their hearts would never repent to loving Him. There is no message that includes the word, hell, but, early on the visionaries saw it and they described it as terrifying. The seers Mirjana, Jacov and Ivanka have 10 secrets. The seers Vicka, Ivan, and Marija have 9 secrets. The only secret they talk about is the third one. It is a permanent indestructible sign that will appear on Apparition Hill, the site of the first apparition. It will come regardless of the conversion of the people.
     
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  5. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    Wbtw, Thank you. Is there any discussion of The Illumination of Conscience/Warning or a Second Pentecost which some people call it? Any discussion of future miracles besides the permanent indestrucutible sign? I think I am finally running out of questions and I really do appreciate your patience. Thank you again.
     
  6. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I don't really want to go round the round about concerning Medugorje once again,. Been there done that. As someone observed positions on these apparitions tend to be polarised to such an extent that new debate appears futile.

    But a few brief points concerning the video as evidence.

    This is not new material; it is very old stuff so we are not dealing with something new and radical but basically rehashing very,very old material. That would be my first point.

    My second point is that it is not some kind of super evidence that makes the case one way or another. This is not how discernment works. One single case piece of evidence is not a case of catching someone with their pants down. It is only piece in a much wider frame.

    My third point concerns the video itself and what exactly is going on there. I watched this video many years ago and thought and prayed over it and this is what I surmise happened. A large team of scientists turned up , mostly from France. Now in France in particular there has grown up a kind of pseudo science that centres o the , 'study' ' of the mystical. I am to a certain extent relaxed about this. But Science is by definition only a certain way of obtaining a certain kind of knowledge. Matters of Faith can not easily be placed under a microscope.

    Mysticism is all about love and loves effects. Science can only go so far here.

    I think the misunderstanding here resulted from a false premise. The false premise was that when people are in ecstasy or rapture, maybe seeing a vision that they are impervious to external sensory stimuli. But what is the basis for such a premise? I assume this is drawn from dubious sources in French psuedo scientific/ mystical literature. So going on this premise people think if a person is, say seeing the Blessed Virgin they are entirely zonked out if it is real. If on the other hand they do respond to outside stimuli this vision is false.

    In the first place I dispute this premise. What evidence say in scripture do people have for posting such a thing?

    I believe what happened is this. All this guys showed up with their expensive gear and everyone in the village knew the bottom line was this. That they were testing to see if the visionaries during the vision would respond to outside stimuli. If they did respend the thing was false , if they didn't well things were fine. I think this visionary knew this felt under enormous pressure and made this story up to cover up the fact she had reacted.

    The Book of Sirach says that the just man falls several times a day. I know I fall several hundred times a day. I am not going to blame anyone else for falling lower than the imposible standards I set them, whe I could never hold up such standards myself. I believe she erred under enormous pressure.

    Does that mean I suspect herself and the others are pathological serial liarers.?

    No. In fact I regard many of them as living saints.

    Now I am not going to get into this any further. So I will leave you all to it. :)

     
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  7. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    http://catholicmonitor.blogspot.com/2011/07/queen-of-profits.html

    Excerpts (emphasis added)

    “...But what of the fruits of Medjugorje? There is no question that lives have been changed at Medjugorje. "The reality of grace-filled response of pilgrims and of those associated with the reported revelation, is a deeply moving and a genuine religious experience in its own right," writes Father Benedict Groeschel in his book A Still, Small Voice. Not speaking of Medjugorje or of any reported apparition in particular, Father Benedict continues: "I am sure that even in the case of a false revelation -- even if it be fraudulent -- many people have had genuine religious experiences that may even have been a source of healing.

    The fact is that we cannot judge the reported revelation by its fruits. You would be required to take Joseph Smith and the Mormon doctrine very seriously if you went simply by the effects of his revelation. It is responsible for several billion dollars in religious donations every year -- and yet very serious questions have been raised by Mormon scholars about the moral life of this 'prophet.'"”

    “...if we compare the lives of the Medjugorje visionaries with those of Church-approved apparitions, the differences are striking. Newsweek magazine, in its January 17, 2000 issue, ran a short article on Ivan Dragicevic relating to his speaking engagement in Boston. Dragicevic, who makes his home in the Boston area and reportedly drives a luxury car, married a former Miss Massachusetts and still travels about the U.S. speaking of the Medjugorje apparitions. Other visionaries are reported to have connections with hotels and other real estate in the Medjugorje region. Vicka, for example, claimed that the Blessed Virgin Mary wanted a "pastoral center" constructed in Medjugorje, consisting of a 100-bed hotel with a chapel for pilgrims. She insisted on its construction in 1995.

    According to a well-documented and foot-noted article, "Medjugorje: Old Lies, New Admissions," by Craig Heimbichner, Vicka, Ivanka, Mirjana and Ivan are exposed as having lied -- or at least as having offered boldly conflicting testimony -- regarding serious matters involving the content of various Medjugorje messages.

    More widely known are the repeated and scathing investigations and testimonies by the long-time bishop of the area, the late Bishop Pavao Zanic, regarding the blatant disobedience of the seers and the dubious nature of their reported apparitions. His successor has expressed similar concerns, as had a bishops conference in 1991 that declared there was no evidence of anything supernatural at Medjugorje.

    On June 19, 1996, Vatican press secretary, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, said, regarding Medjugorje, that "a healthy Marian devotion in line with the teaching of the Church" had to be promoted. He stressed that, according to the investigations that had already taken place, it could not be affirmed that there was anything supernatural about the apparitions or revelations of Medjugorje. Rome repeatedly referred to the local bishop as the competent authority in this matter.

    Another disconcerting element of the Medjugorje apparitions is the well-documented power struggle between the Franciscans who run the parish where the visions take place -- and who are the recipients of much of the Medjugorje money raised locally and abroad -- and the local ordinaries.

    In a letter from the late Bishop Zanic to an inquiring priest from Panama as to one of the more than 20 reasons the bishop claimed to have for denying the authenticity of Medjugorje, Zanic cited the sad ordeal of one Franciscan, Ivica Vego. This priest "was expelled from his order, released from his vows and suspended ab divinis from the Pope," wrote the bishop, "and yet.continued to celebrate Mass and dispense the sacraments." The priest eventually moved in with his girlfriend, although the visionary Vicka's diary cites more than nine times that Vego was innocent and the bishop unjust. When Sister Leopolda got pregnant, Vego left the order. The couple now has two children, yet thousands of this ex-Franciscan's prayer books continue to be sold in Medjugorje.

    The Franciscans who run the Medjugorje parish have not displayed a humble and obedient spirit. On May 12, 1996, when the local bishop ordered the Franciscans to hand over the parish and the rectory to the diocese, the Franciscans refused and cinder blocked the church doors in a stand-off. In November 1998, both the current bishop, Ratko Peric, and the general of the Franciscans, Father Giacomo Bini, met in Rome with the prefect for the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples. As a result of that meeting, Peric and Bini issued a jointly signed letter announcing that the Franciscan fathers would be withdrawn from Medjugorje and other parishes of the diocese as of February 21, 1999 and replaced with diocesan priests. On the same day, the two priests most actively involved in the 1996 standoff were expelled from the Franciscan order per the order's general.

    Another such incident was reported in 1988 in a German newsletter, Der Schwarze Brief, published by Claus Peter Clausen of Lippstadt, Germany. Clausen, a German photographer who was familiar with the seers and parish Franciscans, claimed to have observed and photographed the Franciscans in the act of fabricating the messages. When he was observed in this act, he said he was threatened by the seer Ivan, who later came up to the photographer and "made a gesture which indicated that his throat would be slit" if he continued. The photographer said he was later told by a taxi-driver that anyone who opposed Medjugorje would be murdered.

    The January 6, 1999 issue of Der Schwarze Brief reported that the former state of Yugoslavia took in $100 million by 1988, seven years after the first Medjugorje apparition. This represented five percent of all tourist income for the entire country and 45 percent of the total income of the republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. According to a Katholische Nachrichten Agentur report filed July 15, 1989, the income from pilgrims in 1989 was estimated at $150 million and at $200 million for 1990. In 1988 alone, more than a million pilgrims, mostly from Western Europe and the U.S., visited Medjugorje.”
     
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  8. The person that answers the call of the Virgin of Medjugorje should try to fast on dry bread and water for the full days of Wednesday and Friday. They should confess their sins monthly, they should read scripture everyday, they should attend Mass, and pray the rosary daily. The Virgin has stressed family prayer and consecration to her Immaculate Heart. When she first appeared in 1981, she said the very least one should pray daily was the the Apostles Creed, 7 Our Fathers, 7 Hail Marys, 7 Glory Be's The Vatican Commission established by Pope Emeritus Benedict in 2010 placed the final approval of Medjugorje out of the hands of the local bishop and into the hands of the reigning Pope. Commission members were shown to have voted in essence saying that they believed the Virgin appeared in the first seven days of the apparition. Archbishop Henryk Hoser gave a positive report about Medjugorje in 2017 and encouraged people to make pilgrimages there to grow in holiness.
     
  9. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    It is nice to think that if we say just one Rosary a day and a Divine Mercy Chaplet, we are covering our base with the 7 Our Fathers, 7 Hail Marys, 7 Glory Be's. and of course the Apostles Creed. Phew!

    The fasting is more of a challenge for the elderly or infirm. I used to do the fast two days a week when I was younger. These days it would be dodgy in my present state of health. Of course there are other little ways to fast without living on bread and water, which might also be helpful for other souls who may feel the strict fast is too difficult.

    Do you know the first fast.
    Do away with the clenched fist and the sharp tongue. That would be a good starter for those new to fasting, then there are lots of other virtues that can be developed by doing away with (fasting from) our many little vices, one at a time.
     
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  10. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    Yes, God blesses those who hear his word through his prophets. Yes, God blesses those who "do not despise prophecy". So, one can say that if one rejects what God is asking though his prophets, his servants (Amos 3:7), his blessings that he desired to give are withheld. Some believe that prophecy must be "approved" by the Church before they could receive his blessings, but he did not say this either in scripture or any approved church prophecy. "Blessed are you who have not seen but believe" is a scripture verse that I believe goes without saying to those who discern the voice of God in and through his messengers. One is not punished by God, as you say, for not believing in his messengers, but one could surely see through scripture and prophecy how upsetting it is when his servants reject what God is asking of us. Take Fatima for instance, our Lord made it quite clear in 1931 that he was very upset that Russia had not been consecrated as our Lady of Fatima specifically requested and he referenced that our fate would be the same as it was for the king of France for not consecrating its country to the Sacred Heart. His grace was withdrawn that he wanted to bless France for its faithfulness to his prophecy, but was rejected. Today, we are suffering the loss of God's grace by the pope and all the bishops of the world not having fulfilled the rightful consecration of Russia as specifically requested by our Lady. If it had been done as requested, we would already be in the Era of Peace. But, as our Lady told Lucia, "It will be late" but it will be done as Our Lady of Fatima requested. Thus, grace removed that God desired to give his servants. In a certain way, it is not God's punishment, but we punish ourselves by rejecting God grace, which he desired to shower upon his Church for doing as he requested through his Fatima prophets, just as those in Noah's time did for not listening to God's prophecy through him.

    So many will ask, does this mean we need to follow all alleged prophecy? No! We are told to discern and "not despise prophecy". So unless what is being revealed contradicts scripture or church teaching, one should discern through prayer to the Blessed Mother and the Holy Spirit what God desires us to know and do. After all, prophecy is the one way God has clearly taught in scripture and through approved church prophecy that he desires for us to hear his word for our time.

    In your reply specifically towards Medjugorje, I would say this much. It would be better for those who do not believe in it to be silent then to reject it publicly, at least until rightful authorities within the Vatican speak to its invalidity, as in doing so you may be working against what God and his Blessed Mother are doing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  11. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I'm a critic of both Medjugorje and this Pope and it doesn't put me in any quandary. Whether or not Pope Francis approves it, I will never believe in it.

    I first heard of it years ago from a lady who had been there a few times and continued to visit there as often as she could. What impressed her then was what contributed to my initial scepticism: rosaries changing from whatever colour to gold which is indicative of alchemy.

    Then the stories about the Franciscans, their disobedience, the priest fathering a child with the nun, the "all religions are the same" however it was expressed, the attacks on the Bishop's character, the "seers" admitting that they had lied about being outside for a sneaky cigarette, secrets written in invisible ink, etc., merely confirmed to me that at best it is an elaborate hoax and at worst a demonic manifestation. The video posted by Dean and the ridiculous excuse the "seer" and/or her handler came up with to explain away the non-ecstasy was further confirmation.

    As to the supposed continuation of Fatima, that's another nail in the Medjugorje coffin as far as I'm concerned. Every false claim of an apparition wants to ride on the shoulders of Fatima yet Our Lady continued to appear to Sr. Lucy when she entered the convent and never once said that Fatima was only phase one. They all want a piece of Fatima's authenticity. Numerous supposed miracles of the sun are used to claim that Our Lady is appearing or statues are moving in various parts of the world. If the miracle at Fatima had been the moon dancing, the same people would be claiming they saw the moon do somersaults.

    Some very holy people in our parish are big into Medjugorje. Those people would be very holy if they had never heard of Medjugorje. What worries me is that some day it will be exposed as a hoax, or possibly die off with each of the "visionaries" but when it is exposed or dies off, it's the reputation of the people who genuinely believed in it, along with the Church, that will pay the priece. The "visionaries" and the handlers will have made their money.
     
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  12. There is a book called Is the Virgin Mary Appearing in Medjugorje? written by Father Rene Laurentin and Father Ljudevit Rupcic copyright 1984. In it Father Rupcic had interviewed each of the seers in 1982 with a set number of questions. He wrote each of their responses for each question. pg 54 the question is Did Our Lady confide any secrets to you?
    Marija's response in 1982: Yes. I know six secrets. The others know seven or eight. They have to do with us, the Church, people in general.
    Jacov's response in 1982: Yes. They have to do with our life and with people.
    Vicka's response in 1982: Yes. I have seven. The first secret has to do with our church in Medjugorje. It has to do as well with the sign, humanity in general, and each person. The secrets speak of the Church in general. There are some which concern us.
    Ivanka's response in 1982: Yes. I have seven. Some concern us personally, others, the Church and the world.
    Mirjana's response in 1982: Nine secrets were confided to me. They have to do with us ourselves, the sign, the whole world, and also Medjugorje.
    Ivan's response in 1982: Yes.

    Nothing was said about a warning per se, but it is interesting to note Vicka's response 'It has to do as well with the sign, humanity in general, and each person'. Mirjana also said they have to do with the whole world.
     
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  13. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Medjugorje is the never-ending apparition because once it ends, the money dries up. That’s why the “secrets” will never be revealed. Pope Francis, to his credit, has discerned correctly the spirit at work in Medjugorje.
     
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  14. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    So are you saying that Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe and many many more approved apparition sites that have ended are not making money? You make no sense.
     
  15. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Sister Lucia and Saint Bernadette did not live in million-dollar homes and rake in millions from their apparitions.
     
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  16. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Talking about “fruits,” Bishop Zanic once said that the ultimate fruits of Medjugorje will be division and disillusionment in the Church. I stand with Zanic (and Peric), who have been ridiculed from the very beginning (Peric was even physically assaulted on one occasion) for their decisions on this “apparition.” When the Vatican ultimately rules against this false apparition, there will be a lot of disillusioned folks, especially those who donated their hard-earned money.
     
  17. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    This following prophecy is a little interesting also since we had one Pope who resigned and then 4 cardinals who presented the following pope with a dubia,

    143. Helen Wallraff (d. 1801) "Some day a Pope will flee from Rome in company of only four cardinals
    and come to Cologne." (Cologne was her home; probably wishful thinking.)
    http://ia800200.us.archive.org/2/items/TheProphetsAndOurTimes/TheProphetsAndOurTimes.pdf pg. 180

    It might be a little bit of a stretch but it works for me. :LOL:
     
  18. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    He probably would have denounced it completely had it not been for Cardinal Schonborn playing up to the faithful Catholics in his diocese who believe in it. The Cardinal needs to keep them sweet while he panders to the LBQGTXYZ crowd otherwise almost nobody would show up for Sunday Mass in his Cathedral.
     
  19. In the last message Jan. 2, 2018, the Virgin of Medjugorje implored us to pray for priests.
     
  20. AED

    AED Powers

    I knew a very old and holy Protestant woman years ago who had a saying in regard to mystical things: take the meat and leave the bones. I think it's good advice. Some people are passionate about Medjugorje because they found great grace there. I believe God answers the seeking heart who comes to Him in absolute sincerity. That does not however mean that the apparition is authentic. Jesus empowered Bishops with the charism to discern these things. (Ref. sensus fidellium quoting canon law and church tradition) even if you don't like the Bishop that doesn't rxcuse you from accepting his judgement. Christ gave him the responsibility and the power to discern. We must be careful to countermand a Bishop's official discernment about an apparition. Relying on feeling and emotion is DANGEROUS. We have the official Church to protect us. Are there some good fruits? Wonderful. Praise God who answers prayer. Take the meat and leave the bones. For those of us who have reservations about Medjugorje we have the Church in persona of two bishops of Mostar behind us. We are not ungrateful children who have wounded Our Blessed Mother. There are very very very legitimate questions about this apparition. And yes I have been there. I was there in 1988 and met with the "seers" and prayed and climbed the two mountains and went to Confession and had a Rosary turn "Gold" --all of it.
     
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