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Don't hate me, just questioning

Discussion in 'Marian Apparitions' started by Dean, Jan 10, 2018.

  1. Dean

    Dean Archangels

    I have gone back and forth over the years on Medjugorje. For the most part I believe. But watch from 1:10-3 in this video and it does call into question the validity of the seers.

     
    Carol55, Frodo and Richard67 like this.
  2. Dean

    Dean Archangels

    And I probably wouldnt have thought much about it, but her answer on why it happened is HORRIBLE.
     
    Frodo and seekerofmary like this.
  3. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I am, and have been convinced for a long time, that there is more than enough evidence to conclude that Medjugorje is either fake or from the diabolical. This is why after 30 years and a thorough investigation the Church will not give it formal approval.

    I am a former believer in it by the way and do not harbor any ill will for those who do believe. I am just personally convinced it is not of God.
     
    AED likes this.
  4. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    This pope says it’s not true. If you’re a fan of this pope, that probably puts you in a quandary. If you’re a critic of this pope as well as Medjugorge, again it puts you in a quandary.
     
  5. lynnfiat

    lynnfiat Fiat Voluntas Tua

    I have watched this video and wondered about her reply also, but I don't believe we are to question everything, just judge by the fruits of Medjugorje.- thousands of conversions, vocations, healings and many, many miracles. I was in Medjugorje during the war and can say absolutely and without a doubt that Our Lady is there and appearing to the visionaries. You can find many articles on the internet that talk against them, but you would do well to listen to the stories of those who have been there instead. God bless you.
     
    Light, Patty, Steve79 and 3 others like this.
  6. padraig

    padraig New Member

    The central premise of people who use this video as,' proof ' that the visions are wrong is that people in rapture or ecstasy cannot see or hear what is going on around them. But I am not quite sure where folks get this idea from. I know when St Bernadette was seeing Our Lady they stuck needles in her to see if she would jump. She didn't but I don't see why she shouldn't.

    I have often gone into ecstasies or raptures in prayer but am careful not to go too deeply into them in case I should make an exhibition of myself in places like Church. If someone stuck a needle in me I would probably knock them out.

    I cans see why Our Lady put a stop to all this pseudo scientific stuff out there. A lot of the premises for investigation was simply misguided or tilted.
     
    Steve79 and Mary's child like this.
  7. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    Mark Mallett has written some of the best articles I have read on the fruits and facts of Medjugorje for anyone who wants to prayerfully discern.
    https://www.markmallett.com/blog/2016/10/19/on-medjugorje/
    https://www.markmallett.com/blog/2017/11/03/the-truth-of-medjugorje-you-may-not-know/
    https://www.markmallett.com/blog/2017/11/08/medjugorje-and-the-smoking-guns/
    https://www.markmallett.com/blog/2010/05/25/a-miracle-of-mercy/
     
    Dean likes this.
  8. AED

    AED Powers

    Yes. It is. It bothered Fr John Hardon and with other “off” elements led him to be skeptical. Malachi Martin was forthright in dismissing it as a fraud or diabolical. I don’t honestly know. I’ve been there —in the early early years —but I have come to question it since then. Yes there have been some wonderful fruits but God can honor the devotion and prayers of his people who come with sincere hearts regardless of the situation. I am going to let God sort it out. We have so many wonderful approved appearances of Our Lady. That is where I place my devotion. Not wanting to fight—not wanting to diss those who believe. You all have powerful reasons. Just saying that for me I wait on the Church’s final word.
     
    Seagrace likes this.
  9. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    I never believed Medjugorje was authentic. The local bishop came out against it early on. He was ignored and ridiculed, and that’s when I knew it was no good. There is obviously a hoax element to this apparition, but also a demonic element as well.
     
  10. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    Fatima was ignored and ridiculed and had priests doubt it as well and the children were persecuted for what they foretold. Probably not a good reason to doubt what is of God.
     
    lynnfiat, Mary's child and Byron like this.
  11. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    I think St Bernadette of Lourdes had some problems along the same lines as the Fatima children
     
    lynnfiat and Mary's child like this.
  12. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    Apparition Hill, Medjugorje [​IMG]
    reminds me of the 3rd secret vision[​IMG] .

    I know that there are many prophecies of an attack on Rome (Vatican?) but if the vision is literal I don't think that there are any hills like this in Rome. Has anyone else ever thought of this?
     
  13. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Powers

    Well, Carol, Rome is known as the City of Seven Hills
    I myself have never thought of what you are suggesting
    Most of the hills are populated in Rome now
    Except I just read online that the Palatine Hill is not
     
    Carol55 likes this.
  14. Mark1

    Mark1 Angels

    ...Having been there in '89, I have neither read nor seen anything that has convinced me the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje are false. I tend to believe it more than I doubt it. But I've made no final judgement. I've heard all sorts of accounts of the types of lives the alleged visionaries may be leading, but it's very hard to know what is or isn't true on the internet. Every author has an angle. This is a rhetorical question....because no answer would sway me either way, but I have to wonder, if not true...why would these "visionaries" keep up a charade that has lasted over 3 decades?
     
    Steve79 likes this.
  15. Dean

    Dean Archangels

    Because she said it.
     
  16. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    What are the fruits?
    Conversions who welcome communion in the hand,
    Conversions who believe the message that all religions are dear to Her and Her Son,
    We have here seen signs and wonders certainly,[as forewarned]
    but follow the money.
     
  17. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Very telling:

    E. Michael Jones Interview - Medjugorje

    From Matt C. Abbott:

    Below is the English translation of the E. Michael Jones interview, Friday, August 21, 2009:

    1. According to a report issued by the Vatican on Sunday, Pope Benedict XVI had defrocked the Catholic priest Tomislav Vlasic, responsible for establishing a cult of Our Lady in Medjugorje in Herzegovina. This happened 28 years after the first Medjugorje apparition and raises many questions. First, and as is known, the question of Medjugorje has been neglected by Vatican for such a long time. Does the new Pope have some new visions about this phenomena or some new facts, that is what has made him make such a decision?

    Jones: No, I don't think there has been any new information about Medjugorje for at least ten years. The main difference is the pope himself. When I met with then-ordinary of the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno, Bishop Pavao Zanic, in 1988, he told me that Cardinal Ratzinger, who is now Pope Benedict XVI, was in complete agreement that the so-called apparitions of Medjugorje were a hoax orchestrated by the renegade order of Franciscans in his diocese. Bishop Zanic then told me that he presented the same evidence to Pope John Paul II. 'And what did the pope say?' I asked. 'The pope said nothing,' Zanic replied. This confirms what I learned in my meetings with Cardinal Ratzinger. He was convinced that Medjugorje was a hoax from the beginning. The main reason for the inactivity in Rome was Pope John Paul II. The main reason for recent activity is Pope Benedict XVI, not new evidence.

    2. Stripping of rank is the most severe punishment for severe crimes. In this case they have been tolerated for 28 years. In the Middle Ages one could easily be burnt at the stake... Does the pope's decision mean that Vatican is determined to stop the whole story about Medjugorje or just to punish one of its culprits, one big Franciscan businessman?

    Jones: I think this is the first step in the Vatican's campaign to de-legitimatize Medjugorje. Anyone familiar with the story knows that the apparitions were the creation of two Franciscan priests: Tomislav Vlasic and Jozo Zovko. Children do not create world-wide movements generating millions of dollars a year in revenue.

    3. What do you expect to happen next?

    Jones: When the true story gets out, bishops across the world will begin to ban the 'seers' from their dioceses. This has already happened in the Diocese of Joliet, outside of Chicago. Ivan Dragicevic cannot longer show up in parishes their and fleece unsuspecting Catholics of their money.

    4. How will the Croatian bishopric react?

    Jones: The Croatian bishops in general will say that the findings on Vlasic confirm their verdict of 'non constat supernaturalite,' which was handed down in 1990. Bishop Ratko Peric will say that the defrocking of Father Vlasic will confirm what he and the late Bishop Pavao Zanic have said all along. Medjugorje was the invention of a renegade and rebellious group of Franciscan priests who have used this hoax to enrich themselves financially at the expense of unity in the Church and of good relations with the Orthodox.

    5. Apart from Franciscans, some other monastic orders have also supported Medjugorje. What will happen to them?

    Jones: Juridically, nothing will happen, but there will be widespread disillusionment when the denial that has been going on for so long becomes impossible to maintain any longer. Bishop Zanic said that the ultimate fruits of Medjugorje will be division and disillusionment in the Church.

    6. Medjugorje has to do with abuse of the psychological and spiritual state of the people from the areas suffering from poverty and faced with various turbulences. It was easy to manipulate with them, as testified by the earliest historical events all over the globe. In this case, huge amount of money were at stake, people even bequeathed their inheritances to the church, leaving their families without them. How will this problem be solved?

    Jones: If you're talking about donations to the rebellious Franciscans of Caplinja, Siroki Brijeg, Medjugorje, etc, those assets are held by the Franciscans in trust for the Church and could be appropriated by the bishop of Mostar. Whether they can be returned to the people who gave them under false pretenses is another matter. However, the real issue here is not Church law. The real issue is police enforcement of the law. When Bishop Peric when to Caplinja to talk to the rebellious priests there, he was physically assaulted. Neither the Vatican nor the bishop has a police force that can enforce canon law.

    7. If we look back, we can see that all through the history and in many regions, during turbulent times, social crises, insecurity, spiritual fall... take place, there are many more such things and phenomena attributed as miracles, salvation, etc. People believe in seeing saints on tree barks, there are stones in churches and monasteries which are only to be touched and one is saved from all troubles and sufferings... Does this happen today in developed and peaceful countries?

    Jones: It depends on what you mean by developed and peaceful countries. It certainly has happened in the United States. Why it happened is a matter of conjecture. In my book The Medjugorje Deception, I claim that Medjugorje was one of the sequelae to the cultural revolution which took place in the United States in the wake of the Second Vatican Council. When confronted with a Church that seemed determined to destroy itself, many Catholics sought refuge in what seemed to be a reassuring message which came directly from the Blessed Mother. The result of the Church's inadequate response to modernity was a host of phony apparitions, and of the Medjugorje was the most famous, largely because it corresponded in time to the Reagan Administration's eventually successful crusade against Communism.

    8. None of the pilgrims to Medjugorje have ever seen anything; there is always some medium who can see the Virgin Mary, whereas a large crowd of people 'communicate' with her, believe in what they actually don't see. Visions can be hallucinations rather than actual seeing, but all this goes so far so that the medium is glorified. What will happen to those media? It could happen that they now claim that they have seen Gospa again sending word to the Pope to bring the Franciscan back...

    Jones: First of all, I disagree with you when you say that the pilgrims who have gone to Medjugorje have ever seen anything. Shortly after the publication of The Medjugorje Deception, I got a call from a Unitarian from Boston who had gone to Medjugorje with a number of pious Italian ladies from Boston. He then related the following incident: While standing in his room waiting to go down to dinner, he saw a naked woman walk through the open doorway to his room. She then walked across the room and then walked through the wall. Medjugorje, I learned from a priest who heard confessions there for years, is infested with evil spirits. This charge came out one year ago when the bishop of Mostar released his dossier on Tomislav Vlasic. In addition to sexual improprieties, Vlasic was also guilty of trafficking in spirits. Hence, the demonic infestation at Medjugorje. As St. John of the Cross said, 'The devil rejoices when people seek private revelations.' That is so because they are so easy to fabricate...



    http://www.sanctepater.com/2009/08/e-michael-jones-interview-medjugorje.html
     
  18. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    This thread is a bit like trying to swat a fly.

    A waste of time. People obviously have entrenched positions.

    But I will just say one thing.

    When the secrets are announced to the world and they happen.

    Then Medjugorje won't be mocked.
     
    Light likes this.
  19. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    [​IMG]

    Communion at Medjugorje
     
  20. padraig

    padraig New Member

    You wicked old Trad you
     

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