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Divine Will revisited.

Discussion in 'Consecration to Mary.' started by josephite, Apr 29, 2016.

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  1. KP1983

    KP1983 New Member

    We aren't first century Jews who have neither the fullness of Revelation nor an ultimate interpretive authority. We now have the full Deposit of Faith-- Public Revelation-- given once and only once to the Apostles. Private Revelation can only confirm what's ALREADY IN Public Revelation. This is dogma.

    Paul taught that the return of Christ could happen at any time. Any. Time. Both he and his followers believed that Christ may even return within their lifetimes. He knew of no literal 1,000 years of peace before the Return of Christ.

    Any private revelation that could contradict Paul must, by definition, be false.

    The reality is that none of these approved Marian apparitions and Private Revelations that Mark and others appeal to even DO teach what they claim. We have tons of quotes from recent Pope's and Marian Apparitions-- with a brand new one approved yesterday-- that point to the Second Coming coming soon. But even if these private revelations DID teach what Mark and others claim, it would still be immaterial-- these teachings can't contradict Paul's understanding of the Second Coming. Paul's writings in Public Revelation supersede even a saints personal interpretation of Private Revelation.

    Would you like to tell that to St Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church? He presented arguments "like in a court."

    Simply dismissing my argument as being like a "courtroom," (you know, like how MOST of the Catholics of the past debated), rather than addressing my arguments, shows that you have no answer to them.

    I bring up these arguments to Millennialists all the time. I have yet to have anyone address them. They simply dodge and obfuscate.

    The reason Millennialists can't answer them isn't because they're not intelligent enough, but is simply because their Millennialist beliefs are false.
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  2. Mark Mallett

    Mark Mallett Angels

    Dear KP1983,

    I know I signed off just as you were posting. So I'll respond below...

    Everything you wrote up until #4 is correct. St. Paul actually warned the Thessalonians not to expect Christ's imminent return on these conditions:

    Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition. (2 Thess 2:3)

    Note what St. Paul says in 2 Thess 2:3: the warning is about the possible imminent onset of the "day of the Lord," which begins in judgment and leads to Christ's eventual coming:

    For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief...
    (1 Thess 5:2-4)
    For that day will assault everyone who lives on the face of the earth. (Luke 21:35)​

    That is true. But then the Vicar of Christ broke through those expectations with some of the most pivotal words regarding the eschaton:

    But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay"...
    (2 Pet 3:8-9)​

    From that cue, and also having been taught directly from St. John's apocalypse and his own mouth, the Early Church Fathers continued to explain the "day of the Lord" in a whole new light:

    …this day of ours, which is bounded by the rising and the setting of the sun, is a representation of that great day to which the circuit of a thousand years affixes its limits. —Lactantius, Fathers of the Church: The Divine Institutes, Book VII, Chapter 14, Catholic Encyclopedia; www.newadvent.org

    And again,

    Behold, the Day of the Lord shall be a thousand years. —Letter of Barnabas, The Fathers of the Church, Ch. 15

    Now… we understand that a period of one thousand years is indicated in symbolic language. —St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. 81, The Fathers of the Church, Christian Heritage​

    See above. In this regard, a prophecy like Fatima that warns of the spread of apostasy (the "errors of Russia") is not false because it is consistent with Tradition and St. Paul's teaching. So your conclusion, and your next point 1) are faulty.

    That is incorrect. The heresy of millenarianism and several of its offshoots held that Jesus would literally "come to reign upon earth for a thousand years before the end of the world" (Leo J. Trese in The Faith Explained, p. 153-154).

    So, I'm afraid the logic of your arguments fall apart because the scriptural and historical foundation is faulty. Nonetheless, I want to repeat that you are also making the serious mistake of equating millenarianism to the "restoration" that the popes are referring to or the "era of peace" that Our Lady is speaking through many approved prophets. These are as different as apples and oranges. Neither the popes nor Our Lady are in error because they are not speaking of...

    ...a definitive state of salvation within history... since the idea of a definitive historical intra-historical fulfillment fails to take into account the permanent openness of history and of human freedom, for which failure is always a possibility. —Cardinal Ratzinger, Eschatology: Death and Eternal Life, p. 213​

    Neither is a proper understanding of the Early Church Father's eschatology in error since they taught that, after the interim period or "sabbath rest", there most definitely would be "failure" due to "human freedom": "Gog and Magog" rise as a final rebellion against God.

    The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven. God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 677​

    Pope John Paul II spoke of this period as a "new springtime." So we can assume it will be a period where the Gospel spreads to all the nations, as Jesus said it would in Matt 24:14. But in Jesus' parable, He says:

    "If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead." (Luke 16:31)​

    I can speak for myself when I say that, even after the most grace-filled, anointed, and powerful encounters with Christ or Our Lady... I have managed to sin again. Salvation history will not close until after the resurrection of the dead.

    Continued below...
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  3. Mark Mallett

    Mark Mallett Angels

    And that may be the point, in part, of the Era of Peace. The last harvest when the weeds will be definitely separated for the Final Judgment.

    On the other hand, Scripture says:

    Now I am sending to you Elijah the prophet, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and terrible day; He will turn the heart of fathers to their sons, and the heart of sons to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with utter destruction. (Mal 3:23-24)

    Enoch and Elias the Thesbite shall be sent and shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, that is, the synagogue to our Lord Jesus Christ and the preaching of the apostles… —St. John Damascene, “Concerning the Antichrist”, De Fide Orthodoxa, IV, 26
    St. Thomas Aquinas actually has a beautiful thought about the conversion of the Jews—that the apostasy we see now will be undone, in part, by the conversion of the Jews:

    What, I say, will such an acceptance mean but that it will make the Gentiles rise to life? For Gentiles are the believers who will grow lukewarm: “Because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grown cold” (Mt 24:12), or will fall away entirely, being deceived by Antichrist. These will be restored to their primitive fervor after the conversion of the Jews. —St. Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, Rom Ch.11, n. 890; cf. Aquinas Study Bible

    Note: according to Rev 19-20, there are two manifestations of an antichrist: "the beast and the false prophet" and later, "Gog and Magog." So, "the day of the Lord" begins in the vigil of apostasy; midnight is the brief reign of "the beast"; the "Era of Peace" is midday leading to the twighlight of that last satanic deception of Gog and Magog, which God destroys... and then comes what the Church Fathers called the "eighth" and eternal day. (See Two More Days and How the Era was Lost). So again, the "dawn" of the "day of the Lord" comes...

    …when His Son will come and destroy the time of the lawless one and judge the godless, and change the sun and the moon and the stars—then He shall indeed rest on the seventh day… after giving rest to all things, I will make the beginning of the eighth day, that is, the beginning of another world. —Letter of Barnabas (70-79 A.D.), written by a second century Apostolic Father​

    The truth is, we don't know exactly when "the full number of Gentiles" will be complete (see The Return of the Jews). But Pope Pius XI prayed that this unity of God's People would come soon. May it be so!

    “And they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.” May God… shortly bring to fulfillment His prophecy for transforming this consoling vision of the future into a present reality… —POPE PIUS XI, Ubi Arcani dei Consilioi “On the Peace of Christ in his Kingdom”, December 23, 1922​

    From the approved messages of Itapiranga that affirm an Era of Peace is following the antichrist:

    The day of the Lord's coming with his Mother the Virgin Mary and with all angels and Saints of heaven will be a beautiful and marvellous day for those who have prepared. And for those who have not prepared it will be a sad and painful day; therefore, prepare. —Jesus to Maria do Carmo, 17.2.97

    I hope this helps a bit. See the references and links above. All of this stuff and more is discussed in broader detail in hundreds of writings on my website: The Now Word
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
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  4. Ed Kleese

    Ed Kleese Servant

    I Love You my Brother KP1983 and wish you Christ's Peace.
  5. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    The Era of Peace & Temporal Kingdom explained from God Speaks Will You Listen https://www.scribd.com/doc/22505473/God-Speaks-Will-You-Listen

    "My People: Hear O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord. Thou shall love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with the whole soul and with thy whole strength. And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart. Deuteronomy 6:5-6.

    These words still apply to my house of Israel today. My son Jesus Christ is the seed promised to Abraham in whom all the nations of the world are blessed. Today, my church is the new Israel. My people, study these words carefully from your Father in heaven. In Exodus 19:5-6, listen to my words to my people: If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people:for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation. These are the words thou shalt speak to the children of Israel.

    Now my people read I Peter 2:9: But you are a chosen generation, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people: that you may declare his virtues, who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: My people of Israel today, you are that holy nation delivered from the darkness of Egypt or sin and purchased by the blood of the lamb. Those of you in sanctifying grace make up my nation of Israel today. Listen to the response of my people in Exodus 19:8: And we the people answered together: All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. My people, at baptism and at confirmation, you made the same promise to God Almighty. You promised to renounce Satan, his lies, and his works. You promised to renounce sin and follow my commandments. Do you, my people, understand that you made a promise to almighty God? Are you truly fulfilling your vows to Almighty God? If not, repent of your sins and receive my mercy through the blood of my son Jesus Christ.

    Now my people, read the consequences of my children of Israel’s disobedience to my commands and
    said to you: Fear not, neither be ye afraid of them: The Lord God, who is your leader,himself will fight for you, as he did in Egypt in the sight of all. And in the wilderness (as thou hast seen), the Lord thy God hath carried thee, as a man is wont to carry his little son, all the way that you have come, until you came to this place. And yet, for all this you did not believe the Lord your God. And when the Lord had heard the voice of your words, he was angry and swore, and said: Not one of the men of this wicked generation shall see the good land, which I promised with an oath to your fathers: Except Caleb the son of Jephone: for he shall see it, and to him I will give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath followed the Lord. But Josue the son of Nun,thy minister, he shall go in for thee.

    In case, my people, you do not think these words apply to you today, please read: I Corinthians 10:11. Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Now read Hebrews 3:15-19. While it is said, Today if you shall hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in that provocation. For some who heard did provoke: but not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. And with whom was he offended forty years? Was it not with them that sinned,whose carcasses were overthrown in the desert? And to whom did he swear, that they should not enter into his rest: but to them that were incredulous? And we see that they could not enter in, because of unbelief. Let us therefore hasten to enter into that rest: lest any man fall into the same example of unbelief. Hebrews 3:11.

    My people, notice whom these words are written to. It is not the ungodly and sinner, but my House of Israel or my church. My people, do not let the sin of unbelief prevent you from entering my rest. I created the world in six days. On the seventh day, I rested from the work of creation as Genesis 2:1-3 states. My people, this era of yours is soon coming to an end. The sixth day of creation is finished. The seventh day will be called the era of peace. This is a mystery which has been hidden from mankind for many years. My prophets have described these times to my people. Isaiah 30:26: And the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be seven fold, as the light of seven days: in the day when the Lord shall bind up the wounds of his people, and shall heal the stroke of their wound. Now read Isaiah 65: 17-25. This is a description of my era of peace. To repeat myself, the seventh day of creation is the fulfillment of the era of peace. Now read Apocalypse 20:1-7. These verses also describe the era of peace. The casting of the man of sin and his followers into the pool of fire, marks the end of the 6th day of creation. At that time, I will renew my creation and the seventh day will begin.This day has been described as lasting 1000 years. Remember what my word states: II Peter 3:8: But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The entire era of peace is described as a time period of the seventh day or a thousand years. Only I the Lord God knows the length of the era of peace. During this era of peace, my son Jesus will reign through my Catholic church. This can be called the Eucharistic reign of my son. Do not be confused with the millennial heresy. My son is not going to reign in the flesh in the temporal City of Jerusalem. This is a heretical teaching. My son is going to reign in his Eucharistic glory in the New Jerusalem, which is my church. My son will only return in the flesh at the end of the era of peace or human history, to judge mankind at the last judgment. Time will not exist during my era of peace, as you understand it. Apocalypse20:5-6 states: The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. In these the second death hath no power. But they shall be priests of God and of Christ: and shall reign with him a thousand years. This first resurrection occurs in the era of peace. My saints will be resurrected and receive glorified bodies and walk among my people, teaching and instructing the Catholic faith. This has been described as the temporal kingdom by the Church Fathers. This will be the Promised Land my children of Israel will inherit. My Will will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Listen to the following words carefully. Only those who trust totally in God Almighty will inherit the Promised Land. Remember only 2 men, Josue and Caleb, entered the Promised Land in the Old Testament. To enter the era of peace, you must abandon yourself totally to my will. You must live the consecrations made to my daughter Mary and my son Jesus. You must follow the teachings of my Catholic Church, and pick up your cross daily following my son Jesus Christ. If you do not follow these words, you cannot enter my era of peace. The sin of unbelief prevented my children from entering the Promised Land in the Old Testament, and it will once again prevent my children from entering the era of peace. Let go of your attachment to earthly desires and attractions. You must be willing to be persecuted and totally dependent on your Lord and Savior. Remember: And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more. Luke 12:48

    My Catholic children, you have been given the complete truth. Do not reject your Catholic faith, for you will be held to the highest standard on the Day of Judgment. Read soberly II Peter 2:20-21: For if, flying from the pollution's of the world, through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they be again entangled in them and overcome: their latter state is become unto them worse than the former. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than after they have known it, to turn back from that holy commandment which was delivered to them.

    Now read Hebrews 10:29-31: How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Do not think these words are only written to the clergy and the religious orders. These words are written to all those who have taken the bows of baptism, confirmation, and who have made consecrations to my daughter Mary and my Son Jesus Christ. Your vows have set you apart from the world and you are my new children of Israel. If you reject your vows to your Father and you refuse to repent, there is not a hot enough place in hell for you. For you have tasted of my goodness, received my mercy and graces, and have the Holy Trinity residing in your soul. Do not reject so great a salvation. I repeat myself a final time: Trust in the Lord God Almighty completely, live your vows and promises to your Lord and Savior, and enter into my rest on my seventh day and eternally on the eighth day. These words are from God Almighty to those who have ears to hear. Amen".
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
    Ed Kleese and earthtoangels like this.
  6. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    While it is true that the Second Coming will come like a thief in the night, it is ALSO true that certain unmistakable signs MUST precede the Second Coming. For example, the Sacred Scriptures speak of a supernatural cosmic upheaval involving the moon, sun and stars that will precede the Second Coming. This has not yet taken place. The Sacred Scriptures speak of an Apostasy and an Antichrist that must precede the Second Coming. Neither of these events have yet taken place as the Jews are still awaiting their messiah who we know is the Antichrist.
  7. earthtoangels

    earthtoangels Powers

    The question is do you? Since you appear to have a narrower view of just what the Bishop can speak to when it comes to particular "messengers" of private revelations when such persons are frowned upon in certain quarters. I for one do not limit the Bishop's legitimate place in the Church even in such matters.

    "Peter" is the Bishop of Rome....he has primacy among other bishops and is accorded that proper respect by the other Bishops. Since he cannot be everywhere the bishops represent the Church within their own dioceses, thus where they are there is the Church. And that is how the statement is interpreted. Perhaps you would have us wait for necessary rulings and decisions close to home for whenever "Peter" gets time for a special visit! Then the Bishop could just be some local figure head who gets the privilege of occupying usually very nice quarters...and also have even more time for politics!!
  8. KP1983

    KP1983 New Member

    Yup, but he never said when that apostasy would come. A group of Jews seeing the MAJORITY of Israel reject their Messiah and KILL HIM certainly qualified as apostasy in their minds. The fact is, the Christians of the first century thought they were in the End Times and that Christ's return was imminent.

    Also, notice that 2 Thess 2 says nothing about an Era of Peace. Just that Christ would return after a period of apostasy. That would have been quite the time for Paul to fit in the so-called Era of Peace.

    Coming like a thief in a night sounds like something that can come at any time. You're supporting my position-- not yours.

    Again, we see labor pains, second coming, and an arrival at any time. Nowhere does he mention an Era of Peace. Again, you're supporting my position, not yours.

    Now you've officially lost the argument. You put Paul's words against Peter's, claiming that Peter trumps Paul because he's the Pope.

    This isn't like Cardinal Burke writing something and then Pope Francis vetoing him.

    Paul's writings in Scripture are not subservient to Peter's writings in Scripture. Everything in Scripture is Public Revelation. Everything. Peter's Scriptures can't contradict Paul's Scriptures.

    Yet you claim they contradict and Peter overrides Paul. Sorry, that's impossible. Everything in Scripture is infallibly God-breathed, and Peter's office doesn't trump the God-breathed Scriptures.

    I'm sorry, but you and I both know this is misleading.

    The "early Church Fathers" you quote come centuries later. You and I both know that the teaching of the Early Church Fathers is only true if what they're teaching was handed down to them from the Apostles.

    The Apostles taught that Christ could return at any point, like a thief in the night, as you pointed out. They even thought Christ would return in their lifetime. This was the undersanding of the very early Christians, during the Apostles lifetimes and shortly thereafter.

    Quoting a Church Father centuries later, trying to make sense of the fact that Christ didn't return yet, doesn't trump the earlier teaching of the Apostles.

    The reality is, as the scripture verses you pointed out have said, Christ could return at any moment like a thief in the night.

    This is taken WAY out of context, yet again. Barnabas was talking about the true vs false Sabbath, he said absolutely nothing about a 1,000 year Era of Peace. The quote from Justin Martyr was a debate with a Jew, pointing to the OT as being fulfilled with the Christian's. It says nothing about a 1,000 year Era of Peace where everyone is converted and Satan is bound. It's not even close to that.

    I mean... those are taken WAAAY out of context. Anyone reading this here is invited to go read those two sources-- it'll take 3 minutes to Google it. See how out of context they are for yourself.

    Sr Lucia said that the FINAL BATTLE, where the FINAL WINNER AND LOSER between Satan and God would be over marriage and the family. She also said that, although Mary didn't explicitly tell her we're in the End, she made it known to her in other ways.

    Sorry, but Fatima isn't on your side here either.

    I never claimed that. I said absolutely nothing about a reign of Jesus in the flesh. I said that Paul and the early Christians believed Christ's return was imminent. It would be unexpected. No mention of a 1,000 year Era of Peace coming BEFORE that.

    Of course the Pope's and Our Lady are not in error-- they're not in error because they're not teaching your flavor of Millennialism. Your given quote doesn't support your position, yet again.
    Sorry, but you and I both know that the very early Church didn't believe in this Sabbath rest of a world of Peace. They believed they were in the end and Christ could return at any moment, like a thief in the night.

    It's quite irrelevant what a saint 300 years later, doing their own speculation, said. The Early Church Fathers are only authoritative if what they teach comes down to us from the Apostles. And as you admitted, the Apostles taught Christ could return imminently like a thief in the night.

    Jesus never said the gospel would be accepted by all nations. He said it would be PREACHED in all nations, and THEN the end shall come. But that's not what you believe. Rather, if what you believe was true, the verse should say: "the gospel shall be preached in all nations, and then accepted by all them, and then I'll wait around for 1,000 years, let there be a looooong period of peace, and then I'll allow the anti-Christ, and THEN the end will come."

    My interpretation of Matthew 24 fits the verse. Yours is off by 1,000+ years!

    Again, you didn't address my arguments, but actually SUPPORTED them, and then gave a bunch of irrelevant quotes.
  9. KP1983

    KP1983 New Member

    Your quote from Malachi and Aquinas does not support your belief, yet again.

    And you never addressed my argument about the Jews living in the Era of Peace who haven't converted. You gave a nice emotional appeal to some far off conversion. But you never addressed the substance of the argument: only people who are INVINCIBLY ignorant of the faith can be saved without the sacraments of the Catholic Church, the evidence for Catholicism will be so overwhelming during the Era of Peace, with no influence from Satan to blind them, that no one could rightfully be invincibly ignorant, yet we know dogmatically that the Jews won't convert until the very very end of this Era of Peace. It logically follows that the vast vast vast majority of these Jews will die, at BEST, VINCIBLY ignorant and will be damned. The "Era of Peace" will be worse for us Jews than the Holocaust.

    Please address that argument-- how can you hold to the infallible teaching that only invincibly ignorant people can be saved outside the Church-- while also holding to the fact that Jews won't convert in your so-called Era of Peace even after Satan is removed and the world is converted to Catholicism through incredible evidence, miracles, etc. There's no way these Jews could be invincibly ignorant.

    Again, please address this argument. Not irrelevant quotes about something else, or sentimental appeals to some far off conversion (which, you didn't mention, would only occur 1,000 years AFTER my Jewish family all dies in VINCIBLE ignorance and will be damned).
  10. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers


    I would imagine that during the period of Triumphant Christianity there will indeed be people - Jew, Gentile and Christian alike - who will still refuse to turn from their sins. Free Will will not have been abolished. Among those who witnessed the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima, there were still those who refused to believe and turned back to their sins.
  11. earthtoangels

    earthtoangels Powers

    Since the Warning or Illumination of Conscience will be experienced by the entire world that moment of the revelation of Truth will also be experienced by the Jews. In a sense that moment in time which itself will be seen as coming like a thief in the night as well will also be a coming of Christ in His unfathomable Mercy in order to correct the conscience of the world. Even within the near death experience of the young Jewish man, Natan, is demonstrated such a similar experience of being shown his entire life with the judgement (with Mercy) but within his own Jewish traditional context.

    The reality is that none of these approved Marian apparitions and Private Revelations that Mark and others appeal to even DO teach what they claim.

    Could we have specifics?

    But even if these private revelations DID teach what Mark and others claim, it would still be immaterial

    Giving us the proper teaching/education of what living in the Divine Will as prayed for within the perfect prayer given to us by our Lord is "immaterial"? The requirements for obtaining the grace to save our souls in such times as these given to us by our Mother in Fatima is "immaterial"? It is mandated by scripture itself that the Spirit MUST come to enlighten us further within this world about things that could not be fully explained before as "we" were not as yet ready to receive them. Our Mother could not even be identified for certain at Lourdes without her revelation of being the Immaculate Conception of which the Church had just studied and declared. Such a reinforcement within "just" a private revelation such as that is "immaterial"? Just the opposite for those of us "weeping within this valley of tears" continuing to be so very needy for that continuing help of the Holy Spirit (and/via His spouse) that elaborates and clarifies on the written word of scripture.
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  12. Don Pierre

    Don Pierre New Member

  13. Don Pierre

    Don Pierre New Member

    Probably worth noting that the Jews must convert before the return of Jesus Christ.
  14. KP1983

    KP1983 New Member

    Sorry, but it's dogma that the Jews won't convert until just prior to the Second Coming. That means NO conversion of the Jews, EVEN AFTER a miraculous Illumination of Conscience.

    That means these Jews WON'T be invincibly ignorant. Yet the vast vast majority of us will still reject the Gospel! That means the vast vast majority will be damned. This will be FAR worse for the Jews than the Holocaust.

    None of those sources-- Jesus prayer, Fatima, etc-- support Marks' Millennialist position.

    Again, Private Revelation can only confirm Public Revelation. I hope you believe this. This is dogma.

    And Paul taught in Public Revelation that Christ's Second Coming could be at any moment, like a thief in the night. There's a mention of a "great apostasy" (which they interpreted as people falling away during early Pagan persecution), and a conversion of the Jews (which happens RIGHT before the Second Coming). Paul has no mention of an Era of Peace, only the watching of the Second Coming being like a thief in the night.
    Last edited: May 24, 2016
  15. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Conversions occur every day, including among the Jews. Some of the best witnesses for the Faith in my parish are converts from Judaism. Your contention that Jews will not convert during the Era of Peace is flat out wrong. Jews have converted before the Era of Peace, will convert during the Era of Peace, and will convert after the Era of Peace. You have created a strawman here, KP1983.
  16. KP1983

    KP1983 New Member

    I'm sorry, but it's absolutely dogma of the Church that the Jews as a whole will not convert until just prior to the Second Coming. That means the majority of Jews will reject the Gospel during the Era of Peace. These Jews won't be invincibly ignorant, since the evidence for Catholicism will be so overwhelming, they'll have an illumination of conscience, and Satan will be bound from deceiving them-- yet the majority of Jews will still reject Christ and be damned! This will be worse for us than the holocaust.

    And yes, I know that Jews convert-- I'm of Jewish descent. I have relatives that still reject Jesus. At least they may be invincibly ignorant. But in Mark's Era of Peace, after Satan is bound, they receive and Illumination of Conscience, and they STILL reject Jesus... well... they'll be damned, quite frankly. The only way out of this is to say that they're still somehow invincibly ignorant, but if that's true then quite frankly EVERYONE must be invincibly ignorant.
  17. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Mark's position is not a "millennialist position."

    You seem to be itching for a fight, KP1983.

  18. KP1983

    KP1983 New Member

    Sure it is. He believes in the 1,000 year Era of Peace, where Christ reigns through the Eucharist* (but not physically on Earth), where Satan's influence is removed and the world lives largely in harmony and is converted to the Church-- except for us Jewish people, of course. The vast majority of us will still reject Jesus and be lost. It will be more disastrous for us Jews than the Holocaust.

    (*btw, wasn't He already reigning through the Eucharist?)
  19. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    All we can really say is that a REMNANT of Jews will convert before the Second Coming. Some of the Church Fathers have hinted that this Remnant will be converted thanks to the end time ministry of the Two Witnesses, Enoch and Elijah, who will be permitted by God to return to earth (they never died but are currently being preserved in another state for their end time ministry) to combat the False Prophet and Antichrist.

    The Illumination of Conscience will be an act of Mercy, one which everyone - including the Jews - will be free to accept or reject.
    earthtoangels likes this.
  20. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Oh my, KP1983, now you are playing the Holocaust card. I've had enough for one night. God Bless.
    Daniel O'Connor likes this.
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