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Divine Will revisited.

Discussion in 'Consecration to Mary.' started by josephite, Apr 29, 2016.

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  1. josephite

    josephite Powers

    I’ve started this thread to hopefully end, once and for all, the hostility I seemed to have created by questioning the Divine will.


    I think we can all agree on 3 things;


    Lusia tells us......


    1] The Divine Will is a new Sacrament. And I agree that this is a possibility!


    2] This new sacrament is greater than all the other sacraments that have been instituted by the church so far. And I agree that this is a possibility!


    3] If we live in this new sacrament it supersedes the other 7 sacraments and we no longer need these other sacraments. I can agree with this as well, because it sort of sounds like we will be living in heaven!


    So we can all agree that LITDW is the ultimate sacrament that Jesus is asking us to live. I can see this in the future, as a time, when the Immaculate Heart of Mary Triumphs!


    But until then my family and I will continue to live with the teachings of the church of today. So I hope Jesus and all of you who are even now LITDW can understand, if I continue to live my life with just the 7 sacraments of the church, because.......


    I have a son preparing for marriage, and a daughter who needs to prepare for marriage but is putting it off. I will continue to pray to God and offer my sacrifices and sufferings to Jesus for both of them to receive this Holy Sacrament of Marriage.


    I have two grandsons who will soon receive the sacrament of confirmation and I will continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will descend on them in a special way when they receive the Holy Sacrament of Confirmation.


    Three weeks ago another 2 of my grandchildren received the Holy Sacrament of Baptism one was 5 weeks of age and the other 7 weeks of age and I was so joyful on this day as I watched them enter the Catholic faith. I had prayed and offered so much for this over many months while they were in their mothers’ wombs.


    I work as an RN, in a nursing home now and I look to see which residents in my care are Catholic so that I can be aware of who will need the Holy Sacrament of Extreme Unction, and if at all possible I try to make sure it is provided for them before their death.


    The only thing I struggle with is living in the Divine will when the Church may be in crisis or schism or has disappeared, as it seems so close to other religions of the new age, where they believe that the one world religion, is a time where all people will be living in the divine essence.


    I hope the Church never disappears and if it does I hope I can make the distinction between LITDW and the new world religion. This is definitely my problem and not those who currently live in the Divine Will.



    So peace to all people of good will and of course, peace to the people of the Divine Will.


    I sincerely mean this.


    Carolyn
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2016
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  2. kathy k

    kathy k Guest

    I appreciate the thought and prayer you've obviously put into this. But I'm trying to read all the volumes of the Book of Heaven I can get my hands on, and I've never seen anywhere the idea that the Sacraments aren't needed. The Divine Will is greater than every gift to the Church, because the Divine Will is the source of every gift. But the Sacraments are a treasure! By order of two consecutive popes, Luisa herself had a confessor assigned who heard her confessions and celebrated Mass in her room every morning for decades.

    I am grateful that your are my comrade soldier of Christ. I've been thinking lately about my Confirmation, and what a beautiful day that was. I was disappointed that the Bishop didn't slap us, as we'd been told that he would. It was a gentle little tap, and I felt robbed! But I know it prepared me for battle, and we are now in the battle of all battles. I know that we are all called to the place where "I no longer live; Christ lives in me." Living in the Divine Will is the best way to this I have found. But the Church has blessed us with so many diverse spiritualities, all leading to the same place.

    Please, God, may we all end well!

    Peace -

    Kathy
     
  3. Frodo

    Frodo Angels

    o_O I'm sorry. But can someone please explain how anything can be a greater gift in this life than the Eucharist? (n)
     
  4. josephite

    josephite Powers

    I agree with you Frodo, however I can't explain this discrepancy. But Kathy explains that Lusia had a priest celebrate both the Holy Sacrament of Confession and Holy Mass in her room each day for decades, so I believe, Lusia's example is what we follow, more so than her words. In fact example is the greatest teacher.

    I think it was St Francis who said....' always speak the truth and if you have to, use words'

    Lets as all be enormously greatful that we can recieve Jesus in the Blessed Eucharist at this moment in time.

    God Bless
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2016
  5. kathy k

    kathy k Guest

    Nothing is a greater gift than the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. At communion, His eucharistic presence remains an hour at most. We are called to embody Him, to union with Him that makes of us living hosts.
     
  6. Mmmmmmm?!?!?!? I am not sure about this. All things are possible with God but not all things are probable. If something is in fact a thing, it is therefore created: it is. Sometimes we pray for something but the thing we pray for does not in fact exist - it is only wishful thinking - and therefore we are praying for nothing. It is not even a possibility. All things are possible with God but only if they are real: only if they are good and true. So we receive nothing in response to our prayers and we conclude erroneously that our prayers have not been answered when in fact our prayers were unreal. There was nothing to answer. A devotion is prayer. LITDW is therefore prayer. But is it real? If something is unreal it does not arise from the realms of truth and God. If that is the case we are deceived in our unreal prayers because God has no deception in Him. God is not present to us in unreal prayer. Our prayers have to be in God and God has to be in them. This is the narrow path of Life that we must tread and this is why we need the Holy Spirit to guide us in prayer. Now the most sure prayer is "Let Thy will be done." So far I see LITDW more as a way to control The Divine Will rather than a way to live in it. It suggests that there is no greater way. How can that be? By saying it is God's greatest gift it limits his ability to give greater but He already has. As such this devotion absolutely requires a Church ruling. So far this ruling is lacking. When Saint Paul tells us that some prayers are not answered because we pray for the wrong things I am convinced he he does not only mean material and selfish things. He also includes ideas that take us down the wrong road. It is dogma that keeps us on the road and guides our steps. It is Dogma that shines the light on God's will. Articles of dogma are the lights on the landing strip that lead us safely home to heaven. Others lights herald disaster. So in conclusion, it is only if what Luisa says is true and then only if it is incorporated in dogma is it possible that her devotion can be safely espoused as a sacrament. A real sacrament is "an outward sign of inward grace." Both the sign and the grace need Church approbation. And this is why we are told there can be no virtue without obedience. The narrow road of obedience leads to the wide open realm of heaven. I cannot see the Church creating a new sacrament out of this devotion. They may approve some aspects of this devotion but I doubt if it will ever be raised to sacramental status and not one that is necessary for salvation. If it were to be declared necessary for salvation and seen to be a sacrament greater than the Eucharist that would contradict Jesus Hinself who said that without our reception of the Eucharist Eternal life will not be available to us. There can be no greater sacrifice or sacrament therefore than those found in the Eucharist. He tells us that there is no greater love than that found in the one who sacrifices his life for another. And there is no greater example of such a sacrifice as that made by Jesus for us. It is this sacrifice that we encounter in Holy Communion. Therefore I do not believe the words attributed to Luisa that her devotion is a greater sacrament Or gift than the Crucified and Glorified Body of Christ. No matter what else she says, for me this destroys all credibility In her devotion. In her contention the real presence becomes not only devalued but unreal and being unreal it can avail nothing. This is not and never can be my Faith.
    The sacraments were not instituted by the church but by Christ himself. The church has merely confirmed their authenticity and their efficacy. Unless the Church approves her devotion I will avoid Luisa's LITDW. If this is the greatest gift then we should be grateful to God for it and such gratitude is a prayer and such a prayer is unreal because in my opinion this devotion is not the greatest gift to the church. That would like saying a mother is a greater gift than a child because she is the source of that child's life and everything that follows in her life. One does not follow the other.
    Please feel free to comment but I do not intend to enter into a debate on this. If I do not reply it is because I am so busy. I am always aware my comments are just my opinion.....but when I become Pope:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: best run for cover.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2016
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  7. Daniel O'Connor

    Daniel O'Connor Jesus, I Trust in You. Thy Will be Done.

    Divine Will "vs." Eucharist: page 54

    (And no, there can never be an 8th Sacrament :) )
     
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  8. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I want to qualify, at least for me, that living in the Divine Will (LITDW) is not so much a devotion as it is a way of life. It is keeping our Lord's presence with you 24/7. It is a prayer in action. To me, a devotion is something one does on occasion. It is holy if done in will of God and not done just in routine. The DW is an ongoing consecration of loving and doing everything in Him. While it seems impossible to do this in this life, it is surely a daily process of dying to yourself and as you do, Jesus can deepen your awareness of sin and he will become a more profound tabernacle in ones own soul. It is surely a process of growing in love with your creator and the more one strives for this end the more one grows and lives in the DW. I would assume that many avoided the Divine Mercy prayers and devotions until they were approved by the Church as well, but I don't think that God waited to bless those who practiced the chaplet of DM before it was approved. It was a gift that took a while to be fully accepted by the Church as well.

    There are other messengers that have been given words on the DW. Here are just a few in a messenger (Verne Dagenais) that I think was touched by God through his messages in GSWYL https://www.scribd.com/doc/22505473/God-Speaks-Will-You-Listen
    • The more you submit to my Divine Will in your life, the more subtle Satan has to become.
    • My people, you need to learn to start thinking as I think or nothing transpiring on your earth will make any sense to you. How do you begin to understand and think as I your Father does? By learning to understand, think, live, and exist in my Divine Will only, and not your human will. You my children are limited in your understanding, because of your human condition of original sin.
    • Live in my Divine Will. Live in my son’s peace and joy. Bring souls to my son. My people return to your Father. Then my faithful you make your Father happy.
    • My son I am the second person of the Holy Trinity. How did I come to earth? By the power of the Holy Spirit and the fiat of the Blessed Virgin Mary. My son, it is my desire for my Divine Will to be replicated through my divine life in the lives of my children. This takes place by the same process as I was brought to this earth. My word tells you that you are to be transformed into the image of Jesus Christ. This is only accomplished by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit and the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary. There is no other way. My Holy Spirit and my Blessed Mother Mary are the means through which my divine life is replicated in my children.
    • When you my child, speak my words in the humility of my will, you will bear much fruit for my kingdom. But speak in pride and my will is blocked and fruit will be sparse or worse no fruit will be borne at all. These concepts are important for my children to understand. The sacraments are the ways to receive my Divine Will. The humility of my will you receive in all the sacraments. It is my humility that allows you to receive my Divine Will or graces.
    • My era of peace will be the manifestation of my Divine Will and humility intersecting heaven and earth in a way not previously experienced, since the fall of mankind. Only the humble who reside in the will of my humility, will enter my era of peace. The rest of humanity will either enter hell or be purified in the fires of purgatory of their false will and pride. Humans are the one part of my creation that rebels against my will. Through the renewal of creation, humanity will once again live in the humility of my will as I intend. Truly, then God will once more walk with his people in his Divine Will. Time is a limitation of the human mind. In my will, there are no limitations. Practice and learn the humility of my will today. Those who have not accepted the humility of my will, will not enter my era of peace. As I told you, purgatory or hell will be their destiny. It takes time to learn to submit to the humility of my will. With the coming purification, those who are still prideful will suffer the most. The humble will see my hand in the events and rejoice my will is being accomplished. Your goal is to enter my era of peace. This truly is My Will for all my people. But my challenge to my people is simply this: will you truly submit to the humility of my will, rest in my will, and walk in my will into my era of peace. These are the words of the Lord.
    • The hordes of hell will try and crush my church. Only those who are living in the humility of my Divine Will with my divine life in their souls, will survive the persecution and deception to come.
    • The choice my people is yours. Let my Divine Will become your will, my peace your peace, and my presence your presence. Enter my era of peace today in your soul and one day enter my eternal rest.
    • If you claim you are part of my remnant, repent of your spiritual pride. For you truly are of a proud spirit. For no one is worthy to enter my Kingdom and era of peace without my mercy and graces. Fulfill your mission for me. Live by my Divine Will and not your human will, and I will lead my chosen people of the New Israel into the seventh day of creation and eternally into the seventh day of creation. God Almighty has spoken to you. Amen.
    • Your goal is to learn to live each day following me and living in my Divine Will. Remember from a previous message, no man who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God Luke 9:62.Remember I love, died for you, and will be with you always even until the end of the age.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2016
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  9. Thanks
    Thank you for taking so much care in your response to me. I have great respect for those who entered the Divine Will and because they have done so with good hearts and minds and clear conscience I am sure they will be well regarded. I thought the term "devotion" would be questioned but I know you guys are devoted to living in the Divine Will. I took my comment to confession today to a holy and learned priest who confirmed without hesitation that what I had said was correct and that my reaction was healthy, justifiable and justified. Dan directed me to page 54 of his book. To me that page demonstrates a dreadful misunderstanding of Eucharistic theology and confirms the misrepresentation that I have discovered in Luisa's writings.
     
  10. Well at least we agree on no 8th sacrament. Thank you.
     
  11. josephite

    josephite Powers

    Joe,

    I defer to the Church's authorities.

    I still have many questions regarding the writtings of Lusia Piccaretta, however I will now, refrain from reading these writings which are causing much confusion, until the Church authorities have given their conclusions on these matters.

    The questions I have asked, have only served to hurt others here on the forum. This is not a good thing.


    I will now leave this alone as I have come to the conclusion that indeed many of what we read today, 'as Lusia's writtings' have been altered.

    I believe God in His Divine Mercy will give us the answer to our questions if we but trust in His Divine Mercy.
     
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  12. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    Perhaps Joe, for me the DW is more simple than all the theological debates on the details of specific words or what they could construe. I am just a simple person, as I assume most in the journey are. I am not a theologian who perhaps gets stuck on a word or phrase and throws the baby out with the bath water. For all I know, the few, very few 'hard sayings' in Luisa's diary could be reconciled through rightful translations or interpretations coming from those who are more learned than the rest of us. Most of us folk are just simple people. We don't get caught up in the few 'hard sayings', but rather take the rest of the 36 volumes of writings of Luisa in the DW on face value. Our simple faith tells us living in God's DW is simply doing as he does, thinking as he does and speaking as he does. This is why I embrace the book God Speaks Will You Listen, as one of the most important books in our moment and into the storm. It rings true to what my own study of the faith through scripture, tradition and prayer tells me. My heart is always open to have God teach and reveal to me what he wants me to understand. In my experience, in my journey, when I have tried to do things my way (and think in a box) I fail. This is what has taught me not to judge Pope Francis, even though he has given at times some 'hard sayings'. I take the love that I see in Pope Francis and see in him what lacks in me. I do the same with DW messages. I take what I can understand in DW and try to incorporate it into my life. I cannot explain every mystery of the faith, but I do not reject it if it is not clearly apart from the teachings of our Catholic faith. There is a difference for me in a 'yellow flag' verses a 'red flag'. I will follow both DW (as I understand it now) and Pope Francis through it all, unless and until I see a red flag, because I know that my mind is finite. God will bless a soul that is searching truth even through the yellow flags of doubt. Not all mysteries are meant to be fully understood at the present.
     
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  13. Thank you once again for taking the time to reply. And in your own words. From your own heart. Not quoting screeds from other sources. Thank you.
     
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  14. Daniel O'Connor

    Daniel O'Connor Jesus, I Trust in You. Thy Will be Done.

    Just a quick note, in case above comment was a reference to me: the PDF I linked to was written by yours truly. I just figured people would prefer the nicer look of a PDF than what would inevitably be an ugly copy/paste (due to formatting issues). I hope no one sees anything wrong with me not wanting to merely re-write precisely what I have already written :)
     
  15. Yes Josephite your decision is the best course. I tend to agree with your conclusions. I see Aviso intends to tackle LITDW next. Good luck to him. I will not enter the debate either.
     
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  16. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus Archangels

    Funnily enough Josephite, it was only when I read your summary that I had the thought that maybe LITDW is given to us to prepare for when the Church is going through the conclusion of its Passion and Death. When the Sacraments are next to impossible to receive, we will still have the possibility of living in the Divine Will...
    and I thought of the hidden Japanese Christians ( see the clip below from WIKI), but I know I tend to be alert to what I want to see or hear.
    God bless your pursuit of the truth.

    The Catholic remnant in Japan were driven underground and its members became known as the "Hidden Christians". Some priests remained in Japan illegally, including eighteen Jesuits, seven Franciscans, seven Dominicans, one Augustinian, five seculars and an unknown number of Jesuit irmao and dojuku. During the Edo period, the Kakure Kirishitans kept their faith. Biblical phrases or prayers were transferred orally from parent to child, and secret posts (Mizukata) were assigned in their underground community to baptize their children, all while regional governments continuously operated Fumie to expose Christians. Drawn from the oral histories of Japanese Catholic communities, Shusaku Endo's acclaimed novel "Silence" provides detailed accounts of the persecution of Christian communities and the suppression of the Church.

    Kakure Kirishitans are called the "hidden" Christians because they continued to practice Christianity in secret. They worshipped in secret rooms in private homes. As time went on, the figures of the saints and the Virgin Mary were transformed into figurines that looked like the traditional statues of the Buddha and bodhisattvas. The prayers were adapted to sound like Buddhist chant, yet retained many untranslated words from Latin, Portuguese and Spanish. The Bible was passed down orally, due to fears of printed works being confiscated by authorities. Because of the expulsion of the Catholic clergy in the 17th century, the Kakure Christian community relied on lay leaders to lead the services.

    In some cases, the communities drifted away from Christian teachings. They lost the meaning of the prayers and their religion became a version of the cult of ancestors, in which the ancestors happened to be their Christian martyrs.

    Many secret Christians, some of whom had adopted these new ways of practicing Christianity, came out of hiding when religious freedom was re-established in the mid-19th century and rejoined the Roman Catholic Church after renouncing their unorthodox, syncretic practices. However, there were those who decided not to rejoin. They are known as the Hanare Kirishitan (離れキリシタン, separated Christians).
     
  17. josephite

    josephite Powers

    The first Catholics in Australia suffered a similar situation to those in Japan, although not near so violent nor for so long.

    A Catholic priest was sent out with the first fleet of convicts in 1788. There was 7 ships in all in the first fleet.

    They arrived at Botany Bay in Sydney; the convicts were put to work building roads and making bricks etc.

    After some years the English decided that the Catholic priest was to be sent back to England as they didn't want Catholics to be able to practice their faith.

    No Catholic priest was allowed back for over 20 years. However the Catholics still secretly practiced their faith.

    A single Consecrated Eucharistic host that was left by the Catholic priest before he was deported was hidden by the Catholics in someones quarters and the Catholics gathered there and venerated Jesus for that 20 year period.

    While without a priest the Catholics baptised their children, prayed, handed down their faith to their children and even got married!

    When finally, the English Authorities relented and allowed a priest to return to Australia, the Catholics apparently presented themselves to the priest so they could recieve the sacraments, I suspect those that married had their marriage vows blessed and were formally given the Holy Sacrament of Marriage. The sacred Host was given to this priest and remarkably the Sacred Host was as fresh as the day it was consecrated!

    I suspect you may be right that when our Faith is taken from us and we have no other choice but to live our Catholic Faith as best we can, like in Japan and Australia and probably now in China and other places, this could be what is meant by "Living in the Divine Will"!

    And many of our forefathers have done this already! Of course it would be Living in the Divine Will!

    What else could it be!

    They trusted in Gods Mercy and St Faustina tells us that Gods Will is Love and Mercy itself!

    How wonderful! that makes sence.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
  18. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    Dont try to make to much sense out of it Josephite.

    Luisa and her teaching of living in the Divine Will has nothing to do with your old school belief of doing or accepting Gods Will.

    Those LIVING IN LUISAS DIVINE WILL , can just lay on the couch and be doing more than the Saints and Martyrs of the past.

    This is the claim.
    True or false?
     
  19. Hi Josephite. I woukd not bother too much about the Mac's much liked true or false answers. They are only true or false accirding to his agenda. I know you like him and I love the old ways but SSPX....lets just wait and see how they react to the offers of Our Holy Father.
    I had to laugh at our priest tonight. He gave a great homily on the readings but had reservations about the claims to perfection of the dimensions of the Holy City. He said that when measured out it came the same size as Australia. Now that can't be perfect :) (for those who do not know there us a friendly rivalry between New Zealand and our West Island)
     
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  20. josephite

    josephite Powers

    I'm glad that now someone has measured out the dimenions of the Holy City and yes this has confirmed what we in Australia already knew!:cool:
     
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