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Correction of Amoris Laetitia Is About to Be Published

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by BrianK, Sep 20, 2017.

  1. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member


    The Correction of Amoris Laetitia Is About to Be Published
    6 hours ago
    Anonimi della Croce wrote on September 16 that Cardinal Raymond Burke disclosed in a private setting during the recent Congress on Summorum Pontificum in Rome, that a "correction" of the controversial Amoris Laetitia is imminent.

    It will not openly confront Francis but will take the form of letter or document signed by Cardinal Burke and other prelates, who in a magisterial way will correct those parts of Amoris Laetitia that contradict the Catholic Faith.
    Carmel333, gracia, little me and 8 others like this.
  2. Adoremus

    Adoremus Archangels

    Does this mean that Pope Francis will not, then, be obliged to respond to the correction? Could the correction simply be ignored, and the promulgation of AL as it currently stands continue full steam ahead? (I know you might not be able to answer these questions, just wondering out loud here...)
    Mary's child, AED, Dolours and 2 others like this.
  3. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    Adoremus, this was my first thought as well after reading this. Pope Francis's lack of response I expect will continue.
  4. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    Frankly I suspect this formal correction will eventually constitute the first formal step in deposing a heretical pope. AL is heretical.
    DivineMercy likes this.
  5. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member


    Pope vs. Antipope: Dissecting the Poll
    What a day. Another massive hurricane hits Puerto Rico. A 7.1 magnitude earthquake hits Mexico City. Signs and portents in the sky. The 100th anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun approaches.

    And today, as you will no doubt have read elsewhere, marks one full year since the four faithful Cardinals presented Bergoglio with the Dubia, asking him to confirm nothing less than that he adheres to the constant, timeless, 2000-year teachings of the Church (Christ's own words, no less) on marriage, Eucharist and the nature of truth.

    This pontificate has been a disaster for Catholics worse than any natural phenomenon. And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Mt. 10:28). There has been a sulphuric miasma to this papacy, and to the current state of the Church Militant, since the night Francis walked out on that balcony and surveyed the people he would try to destroy. So much about things that don't add up, that are ominous, that just seem...off.

    • Benedict's sudden, dismaying, mysterious "resignation", mysteriously worded.
    • The whole banking halt and sodomite dossier, both of which disappeared upon the abdication.
    • Benedict's subsequent behavior that belied his public statements.
    • The St. Gallen mafia rumors, confirmed by self-identified participants.
    • The public statements, hints, interviews and documents, issued by Francis or his henchmen, that consistently undermine the faith.
    • The attacks on Catholics and the Catholic faith by the man claiming to be (mostly) Bishop of Rome.
    • Benedict, living on and on in Rome, not hidden, wearing white, the fisherman's ring and keeping other indicia of office.
    • Fatima, the partially revealed Fatima secret, the Bishop in White seemingly brought to light.
    • All of the unusual natural phenomena, starting with the lightning strike on St. Peter's dome the day of the putative abdication.
    • The support and applause given Francis by anti-Catholics and secular powers.

    Against this backdrop, many actual Catholics have been perplexed, and wondering, about what is going on. However, I have always sensed that many good Catholics didn't like to talk about the proposition that things may not be as they are told; that, in fact, as good Catholics it didn't seem right to talk about it. And though there have been opinions propounded on the net, I had not seen any attempt to poll the members of the Body of Christ.

    Therefore I put up a poll last week asking readers just to give their opinion: Who do you really think is pope, and why? Even allowing for the undeniable traditionalist (or as others rightly point out, Catholic) bent of the blog, the results surprised me.

    I think many are saying, "Hey, I'm either not crazy or else most of us are, but I think Benedict is still pope!" And of those, most cite the ineffectiveness of the putative abdication or some combination of factors including also allegations of heresy, invalid election, deposition, or mistake of fact.

    No, this is definitely not a scientific poll. Votes were limited only by platform, and a person with multiple devices could theoretically vote more than once. Yet there were 674 votes, and a sample of 500 in a scientific poll would yield a +/- of 5%. No, it was not a random sample. Yes, most respondents would be considered traditional Catholics or "conservative" Catholics-- but then again, the poll was intended for Catholics only. I don't consider the editorial board of NCR or America to be Catholic.

    But even considering the limitations, the results are, I believe, quite significant:


    Francis is Pope 16%
    Benedict is Pope 72%
    Some other person is Pope 1%
    No one is Pope 9%


    Benedict's abdication was not effective 38%

    Francis' election was invalid 5%

    Francis has lost his office due to heresy 4%

    Some combination of the above 42%

    Neither Francis nor Benedict was ever pope 8%

    Out of 674 votes, a staggering 490 said that in their opinion, Benedict XVI is still Pope. That's 72% of those who voted. But who cares if it were "only" half? It boggles the mind.

    Of those, the plurality focused on the ineffectiveness of the putative abdication. Meaning, either he never intended to resign; he wrote his resignation in a legally ineffective way; he made a mistake in fact by not intending to resign the whole office; or that he was coerced such that it was truly involuntary.

    Even allowing for the readership's "style" of Catholicism (for which Francis does not care), even allowing for some multiple votes-- the least that can be said is that hundreds of Catholics who found this poll on this blog have the opinion that Benedict XVI is still Pope and that the guy the world and most of the self-identified Catholics of the world hail as pope is in fact NOT THE POPE. Ann Barnhardt cited this for the notion that such persons should not feel isolated, weird or crazy-- that there are others. True, but I ask you to consider this: When was the last time in history (not including obvious interregnum periods) that at least 400 Catholics at any one time were not certain who the Pope was? It's unprecedented-- unless the sedes are right. And I don't believe they are.

    This uncertainty, in addition to the maladies arising from personnel, policies and persecutions-- this uncertainty by and of itself-- is a chastisement from God. A chastisement that only the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart can alleviate.

    There are perhaps practical solutions. Perhaps a true public correction/declaration of deposition would solve the problem of the current occupant. But it would not lift a cloud over the next conclave unless that declaration of deposition leads Benedict to claim the mantle that may still be his, or else prove that he did (or now would) freely and effectively resign, explaining away the coercive indicators from the last such time.

    But can I be forgiven for thinking that there is at least one Cardinal who has personal knowledge of the facts of this situation, who is faithful and willing to live up to his vow as a Cardinal to defend the pope and papacy, who maybe has intimate and expert knowledge of Canon Law and the last two living persons to claim to be pope? Anyone?

    Please do something before it is truly too late. We need to know what is going on.
    gracia likes this.
  6. lynnfiat

    lynnfiat Fiat Voluntas Tua

    No matter what - God's permissible Will has allowed this in our Church, so.....may His Will be done. He is weeding His garden! All we can do is, "pray, pray, pray" - offer many Rosaries to Our Blessed Mother, make your First Fridays and First Saturdays, and pray for our Church.
  7. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I think it is too early to tell what will happen. We don't even know the wording of the document yet or anything else about it. My first thought upon reading what Brian posted was dismay. If all the Cardinals do is state what the Church teaches then that is like putting a pebble in front of a steamroller. There needs to be more in my humble opinion.

    However Cardinal Burke did state at some point (in August I think) that Pope Francis would be obliged to respond to the letter they were going to deliver to him. I think we shouldn't jump to any conclusions. Best to just wait a short while and see what happens.

    At this point something needs to be done. If the Dubia Cardinals don't do it then I think someone else will. Anyone with eyes can see the monumental problems with the varied interpretations of Amoris Laetitia that are going around. You can't have 2 exactly opposite moral interpretations of the same document and expect the problem to just "go away". This needs to be rectified or the Church could disintegrate. I know it will never truly disappear as we have that guarantee, but it could radically change, just as happened with the Protestant Reformation. There are basically 2 belief systems now both living in the Catholic Church. No religious institution can exist in that manner.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  8. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers


    Thank you for posting this, I just read through the comments that were posted on the link which you posted.

    In the comments, the author of the blog states, "One of the reasons I still can't reject the possibility that Francis is pope is that one of the holiest men I know, an expert in canon law with knowledge of the curia and conclave, hasn't weighed in. I beg him to. Unlike some other bloggers, I haven't lost confidence in him. He is not afraid to do the right thing, he may just think differently."

    I wonder who he is referring to in this statement. In any case, I think that it is important to note that the author of the blog himself is not 100% convinced that Pope Francis is not the pope.

    I believe that the following comment from a woman named Jeanne H. expresses my thoughts pretty well,
    "We need to pray daily for the conversion of Francis, yes he is pope BUT truly one who has brought confusion and turmoil to Holy Mother Church...sad to say.
    I must keep my eyes on Christ ...HE sent His Mother to warn us, and to tell us exactly what we must do ...so obey the message of Fatima. Pray the Rosary and wear the Scapular. Obedience is crucial to Christ and His Mother.
    The Apostasy that Our Lady told us about is upon us ( my opinion). Stand firm, be faithful to the complete TRUTH ...God Wins in the end !"

    I am praying for the entire Church, especially Pope Francis and Cardinal Burke.

    Edited: I changed certain to convinced.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
    Don_D and AED like this.
  9. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    I pray for this pope, by name, daily. I fast for him. I'm bearing an enormous cross for him. And I know he is a heretic and I openly conjecture that history will say he was not a valid pope, to keep my faith and my sanity intact. But I pray, fast, and sacrifice for him as if he were.
  10. lynnfiat

    lynnfiat Fiat Voluntas Tua

    "This is the hour when the abomination of desolation is truly entering into the holy temple of God. They are no longer the salt of the earth, but a salt without savor,, corrupted and nauseating, good only to be strewn on the ground and trampled underfoot by everyone. They are no longer the light on the candlestick, but darkness which makes the night even more obscure. They are all poor ailing priest-sons of mine, because they have fallen under the dominion of satan."
    "Help them without ever judging them. Love them always . Do not condemn them, this is not your role."
    "This scandal will become even greater and more serious."
    Live simply in surrender and trust, like my little children, in my Immaculate Heart."

    To the Priests, Our Lady's Beloved Sons (The Marian Movement of Priests) #74
    Byron likes this.
  11. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers


    I understand, except I have to trust what Cardinal Burke stated in an interview last December on this subject of heresy:

    Cardinal Burke said he is not accusing Pope Francis of "heresy" by submitting the five dubia for him to answer. He also explained that if a pope were to "formally profess heresy he would cease, by that act, to be the Pope" and that there is a process within the Church for dealing with such a situation.

    I can't believe that Cardinal Burke would not speak up if he thought that Pope Francis was a formal heretic.

    PS - If you are stating that Pope Francis is an "informal" heretic, well, that's another situation.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  12. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Perhaps the Cardinal has his suspicions but is waiting to see how the Pope will respond to the correction.

    I'm leaning towards Brian's assessment of Pope Francis but dare not say so. I just can't get over the Pope's claims that the Holy Spirit is leading this promotion of heresy and divisiveness. If we are to believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding Pope Francis to divorce pastoral practice from Doctrine, then we have to believe that the Holy Spirit was not guiding Pope John Paul 11 when it said that was impossible. We know that the Holy Spirit doesn't contradict Himself, so one of them was/is wrong.

    We know that there has been a movement to change Church teaching on birth control and marriage since there was open rejection of Humane Vitae. We must believe, therefore, that for Pope Francis to be right the Holy Spirit had to be guiding the dissenters rather than the Popes whose teaching they rejected. I can't bring myself to believe that the Holy Spirit was on the wrong track for 2000 years and only became aware of His error when Pope Francis issued Amoris Laetitia.

    Perhaps nothing will come of the correction and it will be ignored by Pope Francis. Whether or not it is ignored, we can thank Cardinal Burke for ensuring that Amoris Laetitia will always be a questionable document subject to correction or retraction in the future.
    sterph, Mary's child and gracia like this.
  13. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers


    It does feel like we, the church, are on the edge of a precipice and the next move is crucial. Hopefully, the next step taken by the shepherds will lead us in the right direction. I think that we need to continue to be patient just a little longer.
    Dolours, gracia and Mary's child like this.
  14. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    He might not be saying it, but AL represents formal heresy, which over the ensuing year since the Dubia were submitted represents persistent and obstinate formal heresy. Many saints said a pope guilty of persistent obstinate formal heresy automatically ceases to be pope.

    I've had it verified to me by one of the original signers of the "45 theologians letter to the College of Cardinals" that AL does, in his opinion, represent formal heresy.

    I suspect Cardinal Burke, Sarah et al are painfully aware of this reality.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2017
  15. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    I wonder if we are in fact in the eye of the storm rather than the brunt of it. It sure seems that way.

    I too pray for Pope Francis each and every day.

    "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."
    Carol55, Mary's child and sterph like this.
  16. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I'm not sure, Brian, that the document itself represents formal heresy because I'm fairly sure that Cardinal Muller and Cardinal Burke said that it's ok when interpreted in line with what has always been taught and believed. Didn't Pope Francis ignore the dubia because had he answered the questions in line with Church teaching it would have rendered invalid the heterodox interpretations that it was written to permit?

    I think that the dubia Cardinals made a mistake waiting so long to issue the correction. Now that he has stacked the episcopacy, he could convene a Church Council to rubber stamp AL and all the heretical interpretations. Should that happen, supporters of the dubia will have no choice but to submit.
    Mary's child, Tanker and Don_D like this.
  17. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    When one reads the original "45 theologians letter to the College of Cardinals" regarding AL one realizes there IS formal heresy in AL, regardless of how its interpreted.
    Carol55 and DivineMercy like this.
  18. DivineMercy

    DivineMercy Archangels

    Carol55 and BrianK like this.
  19. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I am so glad God has a plan and is in charge of everything. Whatever God allows the heretics to accomplish will not hinder his plans for the Triumph and Era of Peace. In fact, it will make this period all the more joyful and praiseworthy of our God for rescuing this world from its ugliness. And all we really need to do is keep the faith that has been handed on, pray the rosary daily and stay in the state of grace. We will have many obstacles for sure, but we must not loose hope knowing that God will not test us beyond what he knows his grace cannot sustain within.
  20. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    God's plan is for our salvation. It worries me when people say "Got is permitting this". There's a difference between God permitting something and God willing something to happen. God permits all sorts of evil. When has God ever asked for a passive response to evil? Passiveness and silence in the face of evil has brought us to this sorry state of affairs. I don't know much about Michael Voris. I had never heard of him before I joined this forum. Many "enlightened" and self-styled "reputable" Catholics can't find enough words to condemn him. Lately Lifesite News are also targets of their invective. While I'm a little apprehensive about promoting Voris as some kind of role model, the truth is that there would be no need for a Michael Voris or his Church Militant if we all, especially our hierarchy, hadn't been so passive about evil growing and spreading within the Church.

    Fr. James Martin is also new to me. Sadly, he isn't new to Catholic Universities across the US. And from what I can see, he is a symptom of a disease. Bishop McElroy(?) called Fr. Martin's critics a cancer. The truth is that Martin is a visible tumour growing out of a well embedded cancer which appears to have started in the Jesuit order and, untreated, spread throughout the Church, completely replacing anything Catholic in quite a few Bishops. By the time Pope John Paul tried to cut it out of the Jesuits, doing so would have meant closing down the Order completely. Unfortunately he didn't do that and stopped short when he put it under Vatican control for a while. He should have cleared out the order at the very least but he didn't. Pope John Paul doesn't deserve all theblame because the Jesuits had already spread Russia's errors by the time he was elected.

    I watched a video of Fr. Martin talking to the Chairman of (Jesuit) Fordham University Theology Department and a Professor of Religious Studies at Manhattan College who is a graduate of Fordham. There are numerous youtube videos of Fr. Martin spreading his beliefs in "Catholic" colleges across the US. The Chair of Fordham's Theology Department, out and proud living with his "husband", has converted to Episcopalianism and was so touched by all the good wishes he received from the faculty, including the Jesuits, on his "marriage". Rather than putting a stop to this, our hierarchy are supporting it. Why is it left to Michael Voris to stand against this evil? When God asks us what did we do, will our answer be "I said and did nothing because I knew you were in control and it couldn't have happened without your permission"? Rather than attacking Michael Voris, we should be thanking him for shining a light on this cancer.

    Here's a link to the video of the discussion at Fordham. Note that it was sponsored and published on Youtube by the Jesuit America Magazine. I expect that David will be along soon to tell us it's all about looooovvve and Ignatian Spirituality.

    BrianK likes this.

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