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Charlie's Perceptive Take

Discussion in 'The Signs of the Times' started by Mario, Jun 14, 2016.

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  1. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I think you have way crossed the line , Kevin with a lot of the stuff you are posting about Charlie Kevin. I take it you have an understanindg of the sin of detraction? I think you have no moral right to drag a lot of this perosnal stuff out into public view, whether it be right or wrong.

    a wee one likes this.
  2. Kevin Symonds

    Kevin Symonds New Member


    Whatever I have said about Charlie's claims in my formal criticisms was a matter of public knowledge. I do not recall ever saying anything about Charlie in those writings that was not a matter of public record.

    Are you aware that as members of the Church, we enjoy the right and duty to inform ourselves. We are, moreover, not only allowed this, but to form our opinion, charitably express and defend it in the public forum as well.

    This thread exists to talk about Charlie's claims. I am not the man's judge as that prerogative belongs to God. His claims, properly speaking, belong with the competent Ecclesiastical Authority (the Archdiocese of Denver). Insofar as this is a public forum and we are talking about information that is public record, I doubt that there is any fault in that.

    Keep in mind one last thing:
    If you believe I am judging Charlie because I do not believe in his claims, the reverse is equally true. You have judged Charlie's claims, apparently, to be supernatural. You've judged too, yet somehow because I question his claims and discuss my opinion in the public forum as well, my "judgment" is evil?

    No, sir, it's a two-way street.

    -Kevin Symonds
    earthtoangels and FreshEggs like this.
  3. Kevin Symonds

    Kevin Symonds New Member

    What "personal" stuff have I brought out? I've said nothing about Charlie's claims that are not a matter of public record.
  4. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I can't disagree with that. I don't believe in the "Warning" prophecy, but I do believe that God will chastise the world. God didn't give us a time frame, so we could be pushing up daisies when it happens. Anyway, I don't see how there could be a perfect refuge since we don't know what way the chastisement will affect the world. If it has something to do with the earth's axis (as sensed by Sr. Lucia) the all-singing, all-dancing refuge could be swallowed in an earthquake, covered by a landslide, sucked up in a tornado, engulfed by a tidal wave, or any number of natural disasters.

    Looking around at the anger, hatred and growing civil unrest across the globe, I see no harm in stocking up on essentials in case there's some kind of meltdown, but I wouldn't confuse that type of emergency with a direct intervention from Heaven such as the chastisement. In a Venezuelan type meltdown, I think I would rather be on familiar territory with emergency supplies than in some strange, remote area where I would be afraid of every strange noise not to mention strange people who might show up.
  5. Harper

    Harper Guest

    We are all here to discern, right? How does the Church judge individuals who claim private revelation?

    Let me quote a church authority, Fr Peter Joseph of Wagga Wagga, Australia. Fr. Joseph has a doctorate in dogmatic theology from the Pontifical Gregorian University, Rome, and is currently the Chancellor of the Maronite Diocese of Australia. He wrote an article on "Apparitions True and False" that appears on Catholic Apologetics, here: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/catholicteaching/privaterevelation/apparitions.htm

    From the article, on what the Church looks for when examining alleged messages and messengers:

    "...To know if something is false, it suffices to know that it says something contrary to the teaching of the Church. Hence, it is easier to pronounce against visionaries than in their favour. But the mere absence of doctrinal error is not enough. There have to be other positive indications...

    Signs of the divine spirit

    "The following characteristics are general signs of the divine spirit:

    1. Truth. God is truth and cannot inspire anything but truth in a soul. If a person believed to be inspired by God, therefore, maintains opinions that are manifestly against revealed truth, the infallible teaching of the Church, or proven theology or philosophy or science, it must be concluded that the individual is deluded by the devil or is the victim of excessive imagination or faulty reasoning.

    2. Gravity. God is never the cause of things that are useless, futile, frivolous, or impertinent. When his spirit moves a soul it is always for something serious and beneficial.

    3. Enlightenment. Although one may not always understand the meaning of an inspiration from God, the effect of any divine movement or impulse is always enlightenment and certitude rather than darkness and confusion. This is true both for the effects on the individual who receives the inspiration and its effects on others.

    4. Docility. Souls that are moved by the spirit of God accept cheerfully the advice and counsel of their directors or others who have authority over them. This spirit of obedience, docility, and submission is one of the clearest signs that a particular inspiration or movement is from God. This is especially true in the case of the educated, who have a greater tendency to be attached to their own opinions.

    5. Discretion. The spirit of God makes the soul discreet, prudent, and thoughtful in all its actions. There is nothing of precipitation, lightness, exaggeration, or impetuosity; all is well balanced, edifying, serious, and full of calmness and peace.

    6. Humility. The Holy Spirit always fills the soul with sentiments of humility and self-effacement. The loftier the communications from on high, the more profoundly the soul inclines to the abyss of its own nothingness. Mary said, ‘I am the servant of the Lord. Let it be done to me as you say’ (Lk 1:38).

    7. Peace. St. Paul speaks frequently of the peace that comes from God (Rom 15:33, Phil 4:9), and Jesus mentions peace as one of the manifestations of his spirit (Jn 14:27). This is a quality that always accompanies communications from God; the soul experiences a profound and stable serenity in the depths of its spirit." (pp. 402-3)

    Fr (Joseph) mentions other signs also: Confidence in God, Flexibility of will, Purity of intention, Patience in suffering, Self-abnegation, Simplicity, Liberty of spirit.

    Signs of the diabolical spirit

    "…ince the devil may disguise himself as a good spirit and even cause what appears to be authentic mystical phenomena, it is helpful to mention briefly the various signs of the diabolical spirit.

    1. Spirit of falsity. The devil is the father of lies, but he cleverly conceals his deceit by half-truths and pseudo-mystical phenomena.

    2. Morbid curiosity. This is characteristic of those who eagerly seek out the esoteric aspects of mystical phenomena or have a fascination for the occult or preternatural.

    3. Confusion, anxiety, and deep depression.

    4. Obstinacy. One of the surest signs of a diabolical spirit.

    5. Constant indiscretion and a restless spirit. Those who constantly go to extremes, as in penitential exercises or apostolic activity, or neglect their primary obligations to do some personally chosen work.

    6. Spirit of pride and vanity. Very anxious to publicize their gifts of grace and mystical experiences.

    7. False humility. This is the disguise for their pride and self-love.
    8. Despair, lack of confidence, and discouragement. A chronic characteristic that alternates with presumption, vain security, and unfounded optimism." (p. 412)

    Fr Aumann mentions other signs also: Impatience in suffering and stubborn resentment; Uncontrolled passions and strong inclination to sensuality, usually under the guise of mystical union; Hypocrisy, simulation, and duplicity; Excessive attachment to sensible consolations, particularly in their practice of prayer; Lack of deep devotion to Jesus and Mary; Scrupulous adherence to the letter of the law and fanatical zeal in promoting a cause.
    josephite, Mac and Jeanne like this.
  6. FreshEggs

    FreshEggs New Member

    Kevin is correct in that everything posted here was made public. That isn't calumny or slander. No one made anything up about Charlie, good or bad.
    Texas Mama of 2 likes this.
  7. padraig

    padraig New Member


    If osmeone tells me something bad about something esle and I repeat it, I still have a duty not to repeat it myself. This is the sin of detraction. It does not matter whether or not it is in the public sphere or not , it is still detraction. We ahve the right to inform ourselves certainly , but not about things that take away the good name of another by washing their dirty laundry in public.

    There in enough material in Charlies writings without dragging stuff like this into the public eye.

    Fr Hardon wrote well on the sin of Detraction:

    'A good reputation is the esteem that one person has formed and entertains about another. It may regard his moral qualities, such as honesty, chastity, or truthfulness; it may regard physical and mental qualities or attainments. In either case, reputation is the object of an acquired right, and consequently to take it away or lower it becomes an act of injustice. Not only the living but also the dead have a right to good esteem. During life we wish to remain in the grateful memory of mankind, and such an expectation can lead us to great exploits.

    What needs to be stressed, however, is that a person's good name is something he cherishes even though we may not think he deserves it. No matter; it is his good name, not ours. We may, if we wish, forfeit our good name provided no harm is done to others. But another person's good reputation belongs to him, and we may not do it injury by revealing, without proportionately grave reason, what we know is true about him.

    Detraction is consequently a sin against justice because it deprives a man or woman of what they ordinarily value more than riches. Socrates' statement that the way to gain a good reputation is to endeavour to be what you desire to appear highlights the effort required to acquire a good name. All of this, more even than accumulated wealth, can be destroyed by a single criminal act of detraction.

    The seriousness of the sin committed will mainly derive from the gravity of the fault or limitation disclosed. But it will also depend on the dignity of the person detracted and the harm done to him and others by revealing something that is hidden and whose disclosure lowers (if it does not ruin) his standing in the public eye.'
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  8. Kevin Symonds

    Kevin Symonds New Member

    What have I said about Charlie's claims that is the sin of detraction? Anything I have said about those claims in my formal writings was material that was readily accessible to any and all interested persons.

    Have you actually read those formal writings on Charlie? Moreover, give me three examples of things I have said here on this forum about Charlie's claims that you believe are detraction.

    By detraction, let us use CCC2477 as our guiding light for a definition:
    "...of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another's faults and failings to persons who did not know them."
  9. Harper

    Harper Guest

    More from the same author:

    Signs of the human spirit

    "The human spirit is always inclined to its own satisfactions; it is a friend of pleasure and an enemy of suffering of any kind. It readily inclines to anything that is compatible with its own temperament, its personal tastes and caprices, or the satisfaction of self-love. It will not hear of humiliations, penance, renunciation, or mortification. If any director or confessor goes against its inclinations, he is immediately branded as inept and incompetent. It seeks success, honors, applause, and pastimes. It is always a great promoter of anything that will arouse admiration or notoriety. In a word, the human spirit neither understands nor cares for anything except its own egoism.

    "It is sometimes difficult in practice to judge whether given manifestations proceed from the devil or from a purely human and egoistic spirit, but it is always relatively easy to distinguish between these two and the spirit of God. It will be possible in most cases, therefore, to determine that a given spirit could not possibly be from God and that it must be combatted, even if one is not sure whether it is in fact from the devil or the human ego." (p. 413)

    Some norms for discernment

    "The following norms are offered as guides for the spiritual director in the discernment of spirits so far as they pertain to revelations and prophecies:

    1. Any revelation contrary to dogma or morals must be rejected as false. God does not contradict himself,

    2. Any revelation contrary to the common teaching of theologians or purporting to settle an argument among the schools of theology is gravely suspect.

    3. If some detail or other in a revelation is false, it is not necessary to reject the entire revelation; the remainder may be authentic.

    4. The fact that a prophecy is fulfilled is not of itself a conclusive proof that the revelation was from God; it could have been the mere unfolding of natural causes or the result of a superior natural knowledge on the part of the seer.

    5. Revelations concerning merely curious or useless matters should be rejected as not divine. The same is to be said of those that are detailed, lengthy, and filled with a superfluity of proofs and reasons. Divine revelations are generally brief, clear, and precise.

    6. The person who receives the revelation should be examined carefully, especially as to temperament and character. If the person is humble, well balanced, discreet, evidently advanced in virtue, and enjoys good mental and physical health, there is good reason to proceed further and to examine the revelation itself. But if the individual is exhausted with excessive mortifications, suffers nervous affliction, is subject to periods of great exhaustion or great depression, or is eager to divulge the revelation, there is cause for serious doubt."


    Is the information useful for the salvation of souls? If it is merely to satisfy curiosity it is unlikely to be of divine origin. Some seeming seers act like mediums, give information on births, marriages, legal processes, diseases, political events, etc. God does not run an Inquiry Office. Some are very clever at observing, or very intuitive, and can work with little things. At séances, furniture is often pushed about, or a spirit moves a person’s hand to write messages, etc. God has never done these things in any approved revelation.

    Curiosity sticks out in people who claim to tell you what was the ultimate fate of Princess Diana, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, etc. We’d all love to know who’s in Heaven and who isn’t! A lady I heard of claims to know where every deceased person is: funnily enough everyone’s either in Purgatory or Heaven! I suppose it would do harm to business and popularity to tell people that certain relatives are in Hell! Actually, anyone who pronounces on famous people is immediately to be disbelieved.

    Also suspect are revelations that merely give truisms and platitudes.
  10. Harper

    Harper Guest

    Everything posted here was made public BY CHARLIE HIMSELF.
    Mac likes this.
  11. padraig

    padraig New Member

    No it is detraction. It does not matter wheter it was public knowlege or not. I for instance did not know about these matters. Nor did I need to know. Nor did anyone else.






    2479 Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one's neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.

    Clearly Charlies reputation and honour are being attacked here. Again discernment can be carried out without personal attack. You are going like a pack of wild dogs at the poor man.

    I repeat who made you his judge? I am going to freeze this thread. But it would behoove some of you people to bring these matters up the nezt time you go to the sacrament of confession. Detraction of a very serious sin indeed. Especially when it is carried on in such a well organised and persistent way.
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
    Karen, Booklady, JAK and 7 others like this.
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