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Cardinal Burke corrects Church Militant on Consecration

Discussion in 'Consecration to Mary.' started by BrianK, May 29, 2017.

  1. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    The term "Roman Catholic" originated as an insult.
    It is a name given to Catholics by Protestants.
    It is used in common parlance now, but wasn't always so.
    https://www.catholic.com/qa/when-did-the-term-roman-catholic-church-first-come-into-being
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
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  2. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    If you live in UK, or maybe other countries where Anglicans are known; you will know that Anglican protestants call themselves Catholic. I use the term Roman Catholic to identify myself as a member of the Church which is under the directions of the Holy Father in Rome, who I believe holds the chair of Peter.

    I hope this helps in understanding why the word 'Roman' is used to identify who we are.

    I would also suspect Sister Lucia living in Catholic Portugal would not have been familiar with the Anglican claim to Catholic as people in some other counties may be.

    I am not insulted by the Anglican Protestant claim, and hope other Catholics are not insulted by the need to identify who we are as a Christian body.
     
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  3. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    You are right and it is also used worldwide today as well. Actually the Anglicans are the originators of the term, wanting to still consider themselves Catholic after they broke with Rome. They styled themselves "Anglo-Catholic and called us the "Roman Catholics".

    Just out of curiosity Julia, do everyday Anglicans really still call themselves Catholic now? I was unaware of this. If you just said "I'm Catholic" people would think you might be Anglican?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
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  4. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    I did that because I was specifically trying to illustrate the similarity of the apocalyptic paragraph that Sister Lucia wrote, with at least one section of the Akita messages.

    I do not discount the possibility that the extra text made some kind of reference to problems in the Church. In the 1998 interview which was partly captured on the video I posted earlier, the following exchange takes place:

    To the question if the secret had to do with Second Vatican Council, the religious limited her response: "I cannot respond."

    http://www.piercedhearts.org/hearts_jesus_mary/apparitions/fatima/fatima_lucia_biography.html
    And I also do not entirely discount the claims Fr Dollinger made about what Cardinal Ratzinger had told him about the third secret.
     
  5. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    I didn't know (or had forgotten) that the text released by the Vatican was written four sheets of paper. Thanks for setting me straight.

    I find all this very confusing. I wish people wouldn't cite unapproved prophecies and apparitions to support their argument on either side because I end up digging through posts trying to weed out the unapproved stuff before figuring out what is real and what is wishful thinking or bias. Confusing enough when people quote Cardinal Ratzinger saying that the Akita message is similar to the third secret of Fatima, but when Medjugorje, Vassula whatshername and everybody's favourite locutionist or seer is quoted like the Gospel, I feel like tearing my hair out. I would like to see the context of Cardinal Ratzinger's statement regarding Akita.

    My belief that there are two texts was based on the understanding that one text contained a description of the vision and another contained what I understood to be Our Lady's interpretation given to Sr. Lucy. It transpires now, according to the excerpt from Sr. Lucy's book quoted in David's post, that the interpretation was Sr. Lucy's and not Our Lady's. Why did Our Lady tell Sr. Lucy not to share her interpretation with the Bishop? Was it because the interpretation was erroneous? Did the Blessed Mother give Sr. Lucy permission to share her interpretation at a later date? Did Our Lady ever explain the meaning of the vision to Sr. Lucy? If she didn't, then Cardinal Ratzinger's interpretation is as good as it gets.

    While I agree with you that we didn't get the "whole thing" as Mother Angelica called it, the bottom line for me is that I don't believe for a second that Pope John Paul would have lied to the faithful about a message from the Blessed Mother. Nothing I have ever read or seen has convinced me that Sr. Lucy didn't trust Pope John Paul. Looks like I'm back to my fallback position that Pope John Paul's sincere wish and attempt to comply with Our Lady's request was rewarded with the fall of the Soviet Union and that's the sum total of our rewards until we mend our ways. Had we prayed enough for our priests and bishops, the politicians in the hierarchy wouldn't have had so much influence.

    If we were praying enough now, we wouldn't be watching the deposit of faith being dismantled and scattered to the four winds by those with a sacred duty to safeguard it. Trouble is that we can't blame folk for not doing the five Saturdays if they don't know about it and there are clerics in all levels of the Church who would gladly see Fatima relegated to obscurity so we can forget about a revival of the devotion in the foreseeable future.
     
  6. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    You converts put cradle Catholics like me to shame. We had the faith handed to us on a plate, took it for granted, neglected it and will answer to God for the souls lost/not evangelised thanks to our selfishness. I thank God that you and others are here to make up for our deficiencies.
     
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  7. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    I am very surprised at some of your recent posts :sneaky:

    This quote from you I found especially surprising:
    And I also do not entirely discount the claims Fr Dollinger made about what Cardinal Ratzinger had told him about the third secret.

    Are you a secret Trad? ;)
     
  8. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Well, Praetorian, the reason I might surprise people sometimes is because I don't actually fit into any kind of 'box' ideologically speaking. I'm simply obsessed by the truth!

    There are aspects to the Dollinger story that I find difficult to dismiss. Unfortunately the website which initially posted the news (onepeter5) is a website that is driven by an ideology which I certainly do not share but that doesn't mean that sometimes they might uncover something significant - and true! But as I said, while I don't discount the details in the article, I do not necessarily believe all of them.
     
  9. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    I find myself agreeing with most of your comments about this matter Dolours which surprises me as much as it might surprise you. I'm sorry that you didn't like the introduction of the information from 'Vassulawhatsername' but this had nothing to do with her messages or even beliefs. It was simply that she attended a conference in Akita where Bishop Ito (of Akita) told the attendees about what Cardinal Ratzinger had told him.

    I shall take the opportunity of copying the actual video where she related this incident:

     
  10. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    Yes, Praetorian, you are correct. If you just said "I'm Catholic" some people could assume you are Anglican.

    I found out about the Anglican use of the word Catholic through Church of England and Anglican people themselves over the years. It had never occurred to me before that.

    Now I will share a personal experience on this very subject.
    We had a very close friend who converted to the Catholic Faith from Church of England, or Anglican. He later became a Roman Catholic Priest, and this is when we came to know him, and became great friends.

    His natural father was a very senior mason, he told us. And he also told us, his father used to say the Catholics are Papists and the Church of England and I expect Anglicans are Apists, because they copy the Catholic Church. From that I also deduced using the Roman Catholic title is more important than I ever thought before. You see it occurred to me the Anglicans do not really acknowledge us as part of the Body of Christ on earth. I stay with the Pope. If anyone wants to call me a Papist, fine. Jesus can let me know when my life review comes who was who and what was what.

    All the protestants actually call us Papists behind our back, not Roman.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
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  11. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/b...will-bring-russia-to-the-fullness-of-conversi

    Bishop Schneider: Consecration will bring Russia ‘to the fullness of conversion’
    [​IMG]
    Bishop Athenasius Schneider addressing the 2017 Rome Life Forum Steve Jalsevac/LifeSite
    Join Cardinal Burke's call for the Consecration of Russia. Sign the petition!

    ROME, May 30, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) – As Cardinal Raymond Burke made his historic call for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary at the Rome Life Forum last week, one of his most enthusiastic supporters was Bishop Athanasius Schneider who was also present at the Forum.

    Bishop Schneider was one of the first signatories to the appeal for the consecration, and explained to LifeSite his thoughts on the matter.

    Bishop Schneider says he considers Cardinal Burke’s initiative to ask the Holy Father to “explicitly” consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary “very important.” It will, he said, “fulfill more completely and perfectly the desire of Our Lady of Fatima.”

    The notion of the consecration comes from the most famous and accepted apparition of the Mother of Jesus, one which has been declared authentic by the Catholic Church and been cited by numerous Popes over the last 100 years. It was authenticated as well by the most stupendous and documented miracle of all time – the “dance of the sun” witnessed by 70,000 people and recorded by the secular media.

    At Fatima, Our Lady said Christ wished the Pope in union with the world’s bishops to consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart. She promised that after it was done Russia would be converted and a period of peace would be given to the world. If not, Our Lady of Fatima warned, Russia “will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church.” She added, “The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated.”

    Pope St. John Paul II entrusted the world to the Immaculate Heart in 1984, but chose not to mention Russia under advice even though he wanted to do so. His counselors said it would be too offensive to the Russian Orthodox, and he gave in to their demands, according to the recently revealed testimony of Cardinal Paul Josef Cordes.

    Join Cardinal Burke's call for the Consecration of Russia. Sign the petition!

    Bishop Schneider said he believes that an explicit consecration of Russia by the Pope in union with the bishops “will bring us abundant graces to the Church” and also to “Russia and the Russian church.”

    “In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph,” Our Lady of Fatima promised. “The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.”

    Bishop Schneider explained that Russia has yet to arrive “at the fullness of conversion, that is to be Catholics united with the Holy See.” This, he said, “will bring a lot of graces” which “Our Lady promised to our time for the triumph of Her Immaculate Heart.”

    Watch Bishop Schneider's interview with LifeSiteNews:


    Conversion of Russia and peace remain elusive to date. There has been more war, massacres, martyrs, and abortions in the last half-century than ever before in recorded history. Russia, where abortion was first legalized in 1920, still has the highest abortion rate in the world per capita. With a population of 143 million, there are 1.2 million abortions per year.

    Sr. Lucia, the eldest and longest surviving seer at Fatima, wrote Cardinal Carlo Caffarra over thirty years ago, telling him that “a time will come when the decisive battle between the kingdom of Christ and Satan will be over marriage and the family.” At his talk at the Rome Life Forum, Cardinal Caffarra said that the time she foretold to him has come.
     
  12. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers


    What an excellent post!

    Bravo Bishop Schnedier!
    What an excellent way to put it. This solidifies how I have been feeling. The consecration done by Pope St. John Paul II was accepted and brought great graces, but a specific consecration of Russia might bring the fullness of conversion to the Russian peoples that we all might be one Church again!

    This caught my eye as well:
    Sr. Lucia, the eldest and longest surviving seer at Fatima, wrote Cardinal Carlo Caffarra over thirty years ago, telling him that “a time will come when the decisive battle between the kingdom of Christ and Satan will be over marriage and the family.” At his talk at the Rome Life Forum, Cardinal Caffarra said that the time she foretold to him has come.

    I know that many of us have felt the time of the final battle had come, but it is another thing completely for a Prince of the Church to acknowledge it!
     
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  13. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come

    Fair enough, thanks for the response.

    But notice that in the very interesting Vassula video you posted above (thanks!) she quotes Ratzinger as saying: "(Akita) is almost word for word the message of the third secret of Fatima". So I believe the third secret must include the apostasy in the church, since Akita states that clearly:

    "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres...churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord."
     
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  14. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come

    I don´t need further confirmation of what Vassula states in this video because I believe she´s an honest, credible messenger and would never misquote what she heard.

    This, however, is not the case with everybody here so is there anybody else that can confirm that Bishop Ito actually uttered those words? Father Laurentin, for example?
     
  15. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Thanks for trying, David, but I'm not interested in what Vassula said. Is there any other report of Cardinal Ratzinger linking Fatima and Akita? A reputable Catholic source would be helpful.
     
  16. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    As far as I can tell this piece of information originated in Inside the Vatican magazine in 1998.
    That is from the footnotes in the Akita Wikipedia entry.

    It states:
    In 1998, Inside the Vatican magazine reported the former Philippine ambassador to the Vatican, Howard Dee, said that "Ito was certain Akita was an extension of Fatima, and Cardinal Ratzinger (when he led the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) personally confirmed to me that these two messages, of Fatima and Akita, are essentially the same."
     
  17. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    Thank you, Praetorian. I have seen conflicting reports regarding Church approval of Akita. Assuming that Wikipedia is accurately quoting Inside the Vatican, Cardinal Ratzinger must have believed that Akita was genuine.

    Does "essentially the same" confirm that the Fatima message contained a warning about apostasy in the Church? Hard to argue that it doesn't especially considering the Fatima message about the dogma of the faith being preserved in Portugal.

    Did we already see examples of apostasy at the top of the Church with the plots to undermine Pope John Paul? Was the election of Pope Benedict a fruit of an accepted consecration or, in light of his fleeing from the wolves, was it a partial fruit of a partially accepted consecration? We could twist ourselves in knots trying to dot the i's and cross the t's.
     
  18. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    This is from EWTN, so this is about good as we can get on Akita's approval status:

    History of Ecclesiastical Approval

    February 27, 1978 — Pope Paul VI approves the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith's Norms of the Congregation for Proceeding in Judging Alleged Apparitions and Revelations. These norms provide the criteria for evaluating such phenomenon and establish the local Ordinary as the competent authority to do so. They also provide that regional or national episcopal conferences may intervene (as has occured with regards to Medjugorje) if warranted, as may the Holy See.

    April 22, 1984 — After eight years of investigations, Rev. John Shojiro Ito, Bishop of Niigata, Japan, recognizes "the supernatural character of a series of mysterious events concerning the statue of the Holy Mother Mary" and authorizes "throughout the entire diocese, the veneration of the Holy Mother of Akita, while awaiting that the Holy See publishes definitive judgment on this matter."

    Letter of Bishop Ito recognizing the events at Akita

    [EWTN
    : Despite claims that Cardinal Ratzinger gave definitive approval to Akita in 1988, no ecclesiastical decree appears to exist, as certainly would in such a case. However, some individuals, such as former Ambassador of the Phillipines to the Holy See, Mr. Howard Dee, have stated that they were given private assurances by Cardinal Ratzinger of the authenticity of Akita. In any case, in keeping with the current norms, given the absence of a repudiation of Bp. Ito's decision by his successors, or by higher authority, the events of Akita continue to have ecclesiastical approval.]
    Revised:
    November 2011

    --End of EWTN excerpt--

    My comment: Normally a Bishop is in charge of determining the status of apparitions in his diocese, except when Vatican sees fit to intervene and render it's own judgment. It appears from the above statement that Akita is fine to believe in.
     
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  19. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Though the apparition at Akita doesn't mention the word apostasy specifically, it seems to indicate there will apparently be an ecclesiastical war in the Church, with at least 2 factions. Rivals at the highest levels will be in conflict. The devil will infiltrate into the Church and some of the clergy involved will compromise their beliefs and “leave the service of The Lord.”

    Here is the relevant message (which took place on the anniversary of the Miracle of the Sun in Fatima)

    October 13, 1973

    "My dear daughter, listen well to what I have to say to you. You will inform your superior."

    After a short silence:

    "As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as one will never seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only arms which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests."

    "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops. The priests who venerate me will be scorned and opposed by their confreres...churches and altars sacked; the Church will be full of those who accept compromises and the demon will press many priests and consecrated souls to leave the service of the Lord.

    "The demon will be especially implacable against souls consecrated to God. The thought of the loss of so many souls is the cause of my sadness. If sins increase in number and gravity, there will be no longer pardon for them"

    "With courage, speak to your superior. He will know how to encourage each one of you to pray and to accomplish works of reparation."

    "It is Bishop Ito, who directs your community."

    And She smiled and then said:

    "You have still something to ask? Today is the last time that I will speak to you in living voice. From now on you will obey the one sent to you and your superior."

    "Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved."
     
  20. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    I believe in this. That there would be no doubt whatsoever in anyone's mind that the peace came through the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2017

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