I've been going back and forth with a strident democrat on Facebook on a post which started with the question why would anyone support Donald Trump for president. I basically said I wasn't for Trump, per se, but voting against Hillary. I then listed the usual points about immigration, abortion, terrorism, deficit, etc. This guy then jumped in and used the usual tactics of name-calling and deflection. I will post some of the discussion here if anyone has the time to wade through. I had said I wouldn't reply again and tried to end the discussion gracefully but now I hate to let his falsehoods stand as the last thing people on the thread read. I know many of you here are very knowledgeable about many of these political touchstones so I would appreciate and comments or if you could point me in the right direction for info I could use to refute his statements. (truth disclosure: I borrowed much of the information on climate change from one of Charlie's posts -- didn't think he'd mind): ME: Well, Joe, I guess this has devolved into personal attacks now. The lawsuit by an anonymous female was thrown out in California and will more than likely be thrown out in NY as well. It has no teeth as much as the leftists would like it to. How convenient that this supposed victim waited till now to file. I'm sure you were equally as vocal about the multiple rape victims of Bill Clinton's who didn't hide in anonymity yet were attacked and vilified by Hillary, that great champion of women. Of course his exes probably signed nondisclosure and prenups. So what? And yes, I proudly support the Republican platform of pro-life (for everyone, including the unborn who were human last time anyone looked), immigration that is legal and follows the rules that all our grandparents abided by and doesn't force refugees on us who can't be properly vetted (this is just common sense; have you noticed what's happening in Europe lately as a direct result of unfettered immigration?); pro-gay and pro-human (the "anti" epithets thrown at those on the right by those on the left are intellectually dishonest. Where is the "tolerance" that liberals so regularly proclaim? Why is there no room for civil disagreement? I guess not marching in lockstep with your views makes anyone else anti-science and anti-intellectual. That's the height of hubris and elitism. Time to reread Animal Farm. JOE: In your first post you wrote that Trump "seems pretty clean of sexual harassment charges". In your second you write about the California suit accusing Trump of raping a minor being thrown out and the second suit in New York accusing him of raping a minor as "not having teeth." Do you consider raping minors not that bad or were you just ignorant of the charge? Syrian refugees are vetted between 18 and 24 months before they are admitted into the US and are mostly women and children. That is not the case in Europe. The Republican platform states that they do not believe in Climate change. That is both anti-fact and anti-science. (It's 129 degrees in Iraq right now.) Repealing Marriage Equality, supporting conversion therapy and promising to pass FADA is anti-gay. That is a fact. Letting the state decide what a person can do to and with her body is anti-women. That is a fact. No one is talking about a law that forces men to take responsibility when his partner has an unwanted pregnancy. If you believe that life begins at conception are you going to also ban IVF? What happens to the millions of zygotes that don't get implanted? If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. If you are against gay marriage, don't marry a woman. No one is trying to pass legislation to force you to go against your beliefs and conform to theirs. And we haven't even touched upon a fair minimum wage and million dollar tax breaks for the %1. I'll pass on Animal Farm right now. I've had my fill of pigs and the people who support them.
Part two: ME: Why so angry, Joe? I have no animus toward you. We are obviously on polarizing sides of the political spectrum but that doesn't need to culminate in name-calling. I don't have any expectations that I will change your mind (as you won't change mine) but point by point my reasoning is this: 1. OF course I don't consider the rape of minors "not that bad" nor am I ignorant of the charges. Charges can and are cheaply made and don't mean the allegations are true. They were thrown out in California and are on their way to being dismissed in NY. That's what I meant by them not having teeth. 2. Yes, we have been told that the Syrian refugees are vetted between 18 and 24 months but that has now been ramped up to 3 months so Obama can meet his mandate of 10,000 by September. Ten percent of these are males between the ages of 14-30 (the demographic most likely to be radicalized). Even FBI director James Comey has said "I can't sit here and offer anybody an absolute assurance that there's no risk associated with this." 3. The Republican party has not voted against the notion of climate change (some believe, some don't) but more against the huge spending associated with it and whether or not anything we do or throw our money at will make any difference. The science behind climate change is not a slam dunk despite what those who scream loudest will tell you. There is much money tied up in this and the powers-that-be don't want to lose their funding. Lots of corruption and politics involved as well on a global scale. Satellite data shows that the earth has not warmed to any significant measurable degree in the last decade and a half. That, in fact, is why the phrase “climate change” replaced the earlier phrase of “global warming.” In the early 70’s we were nearing the end of an extended cooling period. That led some alarmists – in political policy seats and science, to claim that we were heading for an unstoppable new ice age. From the late 70’s until the late 90’s, we entered a period of steady warming. Since the late 90’s we have had a fairly stable global temperature. The ice caps did not melt. They receded for a while near the North Pole while expanding near the South Pole – and have been expanding near the North Pole for a few years. The ice cap at the North Pole was supposed to be gone entirely a few years back, according to the “experts.” An enviro-governmental complex has metastasized. Governments want massive, centralized power – and are willing to subsidize scientists who will confirm their fantasies with massive grants and endowments. This has perverted the transmission of accurate data – and in ways that are obvious to anyone who looks seriously. In the East Anglia scandal a few years back, scientists spoke in what they thought were private emails of “tricking” the data so as to produce the results government overseers wanted in order to justify their seizure of power. Sure enough, when satellite data stubbornly refused to support hypotheses of unnatural warming, rent-seeking scientists moved earthbound sensors to more urban locations (which are typically warmer than non-urban areas) to produce the results they wanted. Here's a link for anyone interested in some global warming facts: http://www.conserve-energy-future.com/30-global-warming.... 4. As for being anti-gay for supporting DOMA and not supporting Marriage Equality I guess that means the Democrats are anti-children for supporting abortion. Gay "marriage" redefines something that has always meant something else. I am against that "re-defining", not against gay people and their absolute right to the same respect and human dignity as everyone else. Call it marriage if you choose to, but don't expect me to say the emperor's clothes are beautiful when he is naked. Do you support a mother marrying a son, a brother marrying a sister, polygamy? There is and can be no "equality" here because nature says otherwise. 5. Hmm, I am a woman who is anti-woman because I don't support the dismembering and murdering of unborn women (and men). What about their bodies? Have you ever seen an abortion? Try YouTube and let me know how it looks to you. So I should just look the other way you say? That's akin to looking the other way at Auschwitz. You say no one is trying to pass legislation to force me to go against my beliefs and conform to theirs? All of these laws go against my beliefs and force me to conform! My tax dollars fund the morally corrupt Planned Parenthood as well as innumerable Solyndras, entitlement programs, IRS harassments, and largest deficit ever. Okay, my diatribe is over. I won't counter anything else you might choose to add, Joe. I have plenty of friends and family who feel as you do and they are all good people. I truly believe that we all want the same things out of this world but disagree on how to get there. I wish you no will ill. JOE: I find your arguments disingenuous. There are always risks with anything. But to deny thousands of women and children asylum in the US feels wrong. Why is it that the most fervent pro-lifers don't seem to care much for children once they are born? A two year vetting process seems pretty reasonable. But, conservative views aren't based on reason or facts very often. NASA, along with 18 other US Scientific Organizations (including the AMA) have issued statements that Global Warming is real and happening. Greenland has lost 150 - 250 cubic miles of ice. Antartica has lost 36 cubic miles of ice in the last 3 years. Sea levels have increased 6.7 inches since the last century. The 20 warmest years ever, going back to 900AD, have occurred since 1981. The oceans are .3 degrees warmer then they were in 1969. These are real facts substantiated by NASA, not some random guy in New Deli who you referenced in your last post. You claim that Climate Change is a vast worldwide conspiracy to keep researchers funded. That is plain crazy. But conservatives love a good conspiracy theory or a bad one. And yes, because it is in the Republican platform, Republicans are voting against the existence of Climate Change. Marriage is a manmade institution. Nature had nothing to do it. A religious ceremony is not even required for a marriage license. And the institution of marriage has evolved over time. A man used to own his wife. It was illegal for people of different races to marry. The backward argument that gay marriage will lead to incest and group marriages is not based on any fact, only fear. Those same arguments were used against people of different races marrying back in the day. And having those views makes you seem pretty hostile toward gay people and homophobic. Let's talk about the deficit. There wasn't one when Clinton left office. We've got the deficit, wars on several fronts, the financial crisis of 2008 and Isis thanks to Bush. And I hate to bash Bush. He seems so smart and classy compared to where the Republican party is now.
haha... there is no wining with leftist hippies He is coming from a stance of relativism and you are not, so this debate in many ways is an exercise in futility. I personally think that the establishment is on both sides of the political divide. The bushes, clintons, and so on are all sides of the same NWO dice. So pitting one corrupt politician against another doesn't really do too much but get your blood pressure up. However he makes some good points you can agree with, you do not have to completely disagree. Such as the in vitro fertilization. You are not going to align 100% with Trump, but given the alternative how else can you vote. A vote for hillary is 8 more years of proven extreme corruption, 8 more years of blood in the middle east, a war with russia... and the list goes on. Trump says a lot of common sense things which politicians have turned away from, however will see if he actually does what he says. I wouldn't put one ounce of my faith in either of these politicians.
You're correct, SH. I have no faith whatsoever in either side of the political divide. I guess I feel there are many eyes on this facebook thread and I don't want him to have the last word on global warming, gay marriages, the fallacy that prolifers don't care about the baby after it's born, etc. These claims are so unjust. I will draft a response and hit him between the eyes by promising to pray for him, lol.
CathyG, Frankly, the only way I've found to deal with toxic people is to gently disengage. Promising to pray for him will end the conversation (and leaving him frothing). Good idea.
Have to agree with the above posts; best to let it go.....these people are so brainwashed, so blinded with 'reason', with group-think and indulgent self-righteousness that they're probably to be pitied (and prayed for) more than anything else. That's easy said though. I remember being at college and realising that practically all of the lecturers carried this group think mentality. And to differ from it meant 'failure'. With reflection, these people are part of the secularism that pervades most aspects of society. What chance have people? It comes at them from all fronts... Is it any wonder people are the way they are.
Thanks for your replies. I did decide to reply with more kindness to him while countering his arguments. I'm hopeful that I will appear more reasonable than he and at the very least leave people open to the possibility that there are other sides to these issues. Loved your take on this, jackzokay!
