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‘Amoris’ means tougher line on divorce in the West

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by davidtlig, Jun 1, 2017.

  1. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    These are not just opinions. We are talking about the teachings of the Church.

    For example, the opinion that Hell doesn't exist is not as valid as the opinion that it does.

    Also, I am not threatening anyone with hellfire. Again that is a misrepresentation of my position. Was Our Lady "threatening hellfire" when she let the world know that Hell existed by showing the children at Fatima?

    No. She was warning people. That is all I am doing.

    Words have effects. They are not just meaningless blather. Making a statement like the Cardinal made is dangerous to souls. I am not judging his inner intentions. I am not saying he did it because he hates people. I am sure he was trying to be merciful. That doesn't make it any less dangerous a statement though.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
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  2. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Much of this thread has focused on some quotes attributed to Cardinal Schönborn from an interview of him. I just feel the need to state for the record that Cardinal Schönborn is a Prince of the Church and I hold him and his position in great regard. I dislike talking about those in the Church hierarchy by name. In fact this is, I believe, the first time I have done it on this forum. It is one thing to note that some of the Prelates are wandering astray and it is another to make note of one in particular by pointing out a specific incident.

    I hope none of my comments are taken as disparaging to him in any way. I am not trying to judge his interior motives. I am sure he is acting in what he understands to be in the best interest of souls. My comments were simply relating to some quotes attributed to him from an interview. We must show respect to all members of the Church hierarchy as they have been put in positions of authority over us.

    It is however every Catholics duty to point out statements that are incompatible with Church teaching wherever they may be found for the good of souls. If this involves those with authority over us then this should be done with the greatest respect and reverence for the positions these men hold. I hope I have showed the proper respect as that was my intention.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
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  3. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    Oh Lord, that is an incredible reading! Thanks so much padraig. :cry:
  4. padraig

    padraig New Member

    St Catherine of Sienna one time got a letter from a very, very angry Prince of the Church. The Cardinal stated that she did not show him any respect. To which the saint replied,

    'When your Eminence behaves in a manner that is worthy of respect, I will afford you respect'.

    Respect is earned it doesn't come with a title. If a Cardinal is talking amoral balderdash there is no harm in calling the guy out in it.

    Personally if I met the Cardinal I would have a strong urge to kick him him up his amoral ass. Not only are they running to hell themselves ; they are leading thousands to hell with them.

    It might do some good, that kick.. Being nice and respectful to these people is not what they need.

    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  5. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    By reaching out to our Blessed Mother and most Holy Virgin. She is all our mothers. That is how we honor the commandment. She will pray for us and tell us how we should approach what seems to be unapproachable in our own lives with regards to our parents. It requires prayer and listening. I know this personally. My father was an alcoholic who I only met when I was 26 and my mother is and continues to be a new age/gnostic/pagan who I am constantly struggling to love and honor her. It can be done, but like all things of faith it is not the easy path. It is a cross to bare in fact.
  6. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Though I am Irish, I do not have as much of that rebel spirit in me as you do Padraig. ;)

    I do not feel comfortable speaking of particular Church Prelates, but as you say souls are at stake!

    It does no good to someone to coddle people in their sins. If these were ordinary times I would probably not have spoken up, but these are not ordinary times. It saddens me so much to see the Church go the way of the world. Men are being blinded. So many souls will be lost.

    I heard one priest say recently that just one soul has more value than the whole created universe. The loss of even one soul grieves God so much. :cry::cry::cry:
  7. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    Yes, we have to speak up least we be guilty of apathy while we watch our Church and Liturgies die. Recently, my social justice pastor, decided to forgo his homily and replace it with our organist dressed up like the Blessed Mother (veil and dress) and perform a skit for 30 minutes while giving a social justice "spill" through something our priest wrote 'through the eye's of Mary' mentioning everything like the "poor" the "marginalized", the "starving" etc...... Of course abortion, the most grievous of all social justice issues was not mentioned! A few left Church and when the skit was over, his couple of elderly women adorer's (whom kiss him on the lips after mass when everyone else shakes his hand) stood up and started clapping as loud as they could. Well, I can tolerate some of this crap, but this one prompted a letter to my Bishop. Our Bishop wrote me back and said that his Vicar General spoke to our priest who acknowledged what took place and said he could see it was not prudent at that time and would not do it again. All I am saying is that we cannot be silent when we see clear dissent taking place or we are culpable if we say nothing. It is time to "take off the kid gloves".
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  8. DivineMercy

    DivineMercy Archangels

    All I can say when I see priests like that - they have lost the faith and don't even understand what the mass is. All one has to do is listen to Fulton Sheen to come to that conclusion :cry:
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  9. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I just bought a book on Padre Pio which I am reading at the moment. It consists of stories from over 200 people who actually met and had dealings with him (including people from Ireland).


    The book opens with stories of people who smelt Padre Pio's odour of sanctity. Some smelt roses, lilies violets and so on.

    But there is an interesting story about an Italian gentleman, an engineer, who was an atheist who led a very,very bad and sinful life. Someone gave him a card with Padre Pio;s picture on it which he kept in his pocket. He then began to smell burning all around him and this drove him to see Padre Pio go to confession and convert.

    I believe the smell of burning was a warning that he was facing hell.

    Padre Pio was right..when souls are at stake.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  10. padraig

    padraig New Member

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  11. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    You have been as respectful as humanly possible Praetorian.
    The higher the rank the worse the scandal.

    How prophetic is the warning of Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton, the eminent anti-modernist theologian who wrote in 1960:

    "No one has ever been as well placed to harm the true Church and to counteract its essential work as a priest in good standing. If such a man, by his preaching, his teaching, or his writing, actually sets forth the kind of teaching condemned in the anti-Modernist documents Lamentabile sane exitu and Pascendi dominici gregis, or if he works to discredit the loyal defenders of Catholic dogma without receiving any repudiation or reproof from those to whom the apostolic deposit of divine revelation has been entrusted, the Catholic people are in grave danger of being deceived."[10]http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/09628a2749943e275df71be4fc204ceb-422.html
  12. padraig

    padraig New Member


    'Well then, shepherds, hear the word of the Lord!” What must you shepherds hear? Thus says the Lord God: behold, I am above the shepherds and I will call them to account for the sheep in their hands.

    Listen, sheep of God, listen and learn: God will call the bad shepherds to account for his sheep and for their deaths. As he says elsewhere in Ezekiel: Son of man, I have appointed you as sentry to the House of Israel. When you hear a word from my mouth, warn them in my name. If I say to a wicked man, “Wicked wretch, you are to die,” and you do not speak to warn the wicked man to renounce his ways, then he shall die for his sin but I will hold you responsible for his death. If, however, you do warn a wicked man to renounce his ways and repent, and he does not repent, then he shall die for his sin but you yourself will have saved your life.

    You see, brethren? Do you see how dangerous it is to keep quiet? If you remain silent, you die; and rightly. You die for your impiety and sin – it is your negligence that kills you. He who has said, As I live, says the Lord might have found a living shepherd – but since the shepherd was negligent, not warning those he had been given authority over, those whose sentry he was, he will die justly and the sentry will be justly condemned. But if – the Lord continues – you say “you are to die” with one I have threatened with the sword, and he does not avoid the sword and it comes and kills him, he will die in his sin but you will have set your soul free. That is why we must not keep silent – and you, even if we did keep silent, must listen to the words of the true Shepherd in holy Scripture.

    Since I raised the question, let us see if he takes the sheep from the dead shepherds and gives them to good ones. I certainly see him taking the sheep from the bad shepherds: I am above the shepherds, and I shall take my flock back from them and I shall not allow them to feed my flock. In this way the shepherds will stop feeding themselves. For when I say to them, “Feed my sheep,” they feed themselves and not my sheep. I shall not allow them to feed my flock.

    How does he stop them from looking after his sheep? Do whatever they say, but do not do what they do. It is as if he were saying, “Their words are my words but their actions are their own.” When you avoid what the bad shepherds do, they are not in charge of you any more: when you follow what they say, it is my words you are following and it is I who am tending you.'

    St Augustine

    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
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  13. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Thank you Padraig and Mac,

    I am just sick of all of us being put into the position of having to argue these points and it shouldn't be the case.
    Catholics should be able to look to their leaders for sound moral guidance.
    Where are the Archbishop Sheens?
    Where have all the Saints gone?

    I don't want to learn advanced theology.
    I don't want to spend my spare time learning Canon Law.
    I shouldn't even know that the last Code of Canon Law was published in 1983 and the one before that in 1917 and the differences between the two.
    What everyday Catholic should have been forced to study to learn things like this?
    Yet today the laity must learn these things just to make sure they are on the right road.

    This certainly isn't what I thought I was coming back to when I got my faith back a few years ago.
    I just want to be able to go to Mass and Confession and Pray.
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  14. DivineMercy

    DivineMercy Archangels

    Yes, it's unfortunate how much time we need to spend just to make sure we're not following heresies and errors. The problem with many of them is that Satan likes to wrap them up like pretty presents and make them
    seem so nice and comforting (like false mercy, for example). I have been amazed lately at how much the popes have been combatting these moderist heresies for the last several hundred years. I find reading the older encyclicals very comforting and reassuring when I am confused and perturbed by things that certain hierarchy say. They are a treasured tool to help navigate through the storm of heretical rhetoric :)
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  15. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I think we are in a very, very special period of history indeed. A time like no other. Our Lady has said as much in her appearances. One of the visionaries at Medugorje was asked about the ten secrets and she said that she did not know why people asked since they are all contained in the Book Of Revelations. Again and again Mary indicates we have entered the Period described . For instance at Knock St John the Evangelist appeared holding Revelations in his hand.

    Note how her appearance centres on the altar. This indicating the time of Desolation warned off in the Book of Daniel the Abomination of Abominations, the False Mass that will be instituted. We move rapidly towards this..a false 'Ecumenical ' Mass.

    The angels are the angels described by St John the Evangelist in Revelations:


    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  16. AED

    AED Powers

    I know Praetorian. I came back to my faith in the mid70's and I thought I had entered a bad dream. The Mass was strange and the tabernacles had disappeared and very heterodox things were being said and written by some priests and nuns. I had been raised in Catholic schools before the changes. I knew what I had been taught and I knew this wasn't it! I had to search and fortunately found some good books through Catholics United For The Faith an early organization defending the real Faith. What has followed is a roller coaster. Many I knew then have left. Many went "extreme" and are sedevacantists. Me, I just keep trying to stay in the narrow path and get to the Latin Mass when I can and thank God for the devout true blue priests we have right now. My husband bailed and my sons went their way and my Godchildren and scores of cousins. Carnage!! Spiritual anguish is the worst. We are enduring as a Church and as people real suffering and anguish and with the current prelates we seem to be reaching the peak or low point. ..the climax at any rate. We are under attack from the wolves and the shepherds scold us for resisting.
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  17. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    I am so glad and thankful that there are so many of you here on the forum who write so eloquently in defence of our true faith. Praise the Lord!
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  18. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    Fri Jun 9, 2017 - 12:57 pm EST
    Cardinal Cupich: Amoris Laetitia is a call for an ‘adult spirituality’ where we ‘discern’ what is true

    CHICAGO, June 9, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) -- American Cardinal Blase Cupich has interpreted Pope Francis’ controversial Apostolic Exhortation Amoris Laetitia as a call for Catholics to graduate from “an adolescent spirituality into an adult spirituality” where they will be able to use their “freedom of conscience” to “discern truth” in their life.

    “What it [Amoris Laetitia] does is it really asked people to have an adult spirituality,” Cupich, the Archbishop of Chicago, said in an interview with Salt and Light’s Fr. Thomas Rosica that was published June 4 via a YouTube video.

    Cupich explained to Rosica that an adult spirituality means “being able to, in some way, realize that you have the grace by God to discern truth in your life in terms of where the Lord is calling you to the next step. It does put the responsibility on each individual, rather than an outside authority telling people what to do, as though they were children.”

    “What the Holy Father is calling us to, what the Church is calling us to now, is to be able to take responsibility for our lives. And that means making sure that people understand the freedom of consciences but also the responsibility that goes with it. So, this really, I think, is a movement to moving out of an adolescent spirituality into an adult spirituality. That’s a big significance, and it’s been going on since the Second Vatican Council,” he added.

    Amoris Laetitia, released last year, has been interpreted by various bishops as allowing Holy Communion to be given to those living in objective situations of grave sin, including adulterers and fornicators. Other bishops, however, have interpreted the document in exactly the opposite way, so that it aligns with previous Catholic teaching.

    Pope Francis named Cupich to the College of Cardinals in October last year. The Archbishop’s elevation came as a shock to faithful Catholics aware of his public dissent from Catholic teaching on sexual morality.

    During the 2015 Synod of the Family, which Cupich attended at Pope Francis’ personal invitation, the then-Archbishop proposed a pathway based on what he called an “inviolable” conscience for allowing active homosexuals to receive Holy Communion. He later defended his view in an ABC interview, stating that if “gay people” in “good conscience” discern that they should receive Holy Communion, then “they have to follow their conscience.”

    The Catholic Church teaches that while a person “must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience” the conscience, at the same time, must be formed by the “Word of God” and the “Church’s authority and her teaching” to make judgments that are “in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator.”

    Salt and Light's Fr. Thomas Rosica interviews Cardinal Blase Cupich of Chicago, May 1, 2017.
    “Conscience can remain in ignorance or make erroneous judgments. Such ignorance and errors are not always free of guilt,” the Catechism of the Catholic Church states.

    The Church condemns homosexual activity as a “grave depravity” that is “intrinsically disordered” since it holds that such activity is “contrary to the natural law” in that it “close the sexual act to the gift of life.”

    Earlier this year, Cardinal Carlo Caffarra, one of the dubia signers, said that it would be a “suicidal act” and “cutting the ground from under his feet” if the pope were to teach in his Exhortation that conscience is the ultimate guide in moral matters, trumping even Catholic teaching as well as Divine Revelation.

    “That is why among the five dubia, dubium number five is the most important,” he said.

    Among the yes-or-no questions dealing with the indissolubility of marriage, the sacraments, and moral norms, question five asks if one can ever use “conscience” to justify engaging in “intrinsically evil acts.”

    Last year, days after being elevated to cardinal, Cupich criticized the four cardinals for raising questions to Pope Francis about Amoris Laetitia, saying anyone who has “doubts and questions” about the Pope Francis’ teachings needs to “have conversion in their lives.”
  19. DivineMercy

    DivineMercy Archangels


    An "adult" spirituality?? First of all I would say the majority of people today have an infantile spirituality, not even adolescent. Secondly, that sounds like the voice of Satan in the Garden (“an adolescent spirituality into an adult spirituality” where they will be able to use their “freedom of conscience” to “discern truth” in their life.) um yeah, that's why we have thousands of religions in the world, because we've all "discerned truth" and realized our "conscience" is leading us to spiritual enlightenment with Buddha/ Muhammod/ Confucius/ Dalai Lama/ Zionism/new age/ Luther/ John Calvin/Billy Graham/ Rick Warrren/ Joseph Smith/ Pastor Susan/ Lex Luther
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  20. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    Unadulterated relativism.

    Like Pontius Pilate 'what is the truth'.
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