Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by davidtlig, Jun 1, 2017.
True charity takes serious courage. Thanks to the both of you for this.
You are welcome DM and MMarie,
And also my thanks to David.
It is nice to see people appreciate civility. I honestly didn't expect to get any compliments on the conversation we were having, but they are appreciated. Sometimes I think we need to take a step back and remember we are all brothers and sisters. We can lose sight of that in the heat of the moment sometimes. Though we disagree on lots of things, I know David is a very gifted person in many ways. I am secretly hoping that he will come around one day (Shhhhh, don't tell him )
From your mouth to God's ears!
Here is the curious thing. When I taught CCD to 6th graders and first began they sat there cynical and bored. Hostile even. And then I began to tell them stories to accompany the lesson. Things that had really happened to me or someone I knew. Being saved by a Guardian Angel or the Blessed Mother's intervention at the death bed of a murderer who refused to repent and cursed the priest out of his hospital room until this priest (who told me the story...it happened to him early in his priesthood) started talking about the murdeter's mother and how if the man did not repent he would never get to see her again. (She had died when the man was 6 yeRs old)and how a priest could NEVER reveal what was told in confession. The man broke down and cried and confessed and was anointed etc. this wonderful priest asked the man what his connection was to the Blessed Mother because this kind of death bed grace always came through her intercession. The man said no he wasn't Catholic and didn't even know the Blessed Mother. So the priest asked him if his mother might have given him a medal or a scapular. Again the man said no he had no idea what they were. But then he said "do you mean this? My mother put it around my neck when she was dying and me promise to never take it off. And I never did. " he reached under his hospital gown and pulled out the Rosary hanging around his neck. Fr. Val the priest said "ah. I knew it!"
Hearing such stories The students changed. They begged for more stories. They became interested. They wanted Rosaries and scapulars. They were like different children. We grew very close. Children are starving for truth and for grace. And we give them gruel when a rich banquet awaits them. God have m
Oops. God have mercy!
Well said Praetorian.
I will have to unignore David now.
I look forward to his reply.
Sorry to be a wet blanket here, but there's something that needs clarification in davidtlig's response (in blue) to Praetorian:
This is the quote being referred to:
In a gay or homosexual relationship, the relationship is always sexual, by its very definition. One can't pretend otherwise. That's why Cardinal Schonborn said "....even though it certainly is not a situation the Church can consider ‘regular".
Poor, poor David,
I think all David is trying to do, is to be faithful to the forth commandmant!
Honour Thy Father and Thy mother!
As Catholics Our Spiritual Father Is Pope Francis!
Does God require us Catholics to at least in word, honour our Holy Father? Are we called to this or not?
David offers a degree of honour to Our Holy Father! that seems to be lacking in some other posters comments about our Holy father and to me this is inspirational!
Just the fact that David, does this, knowing full well the critism he will recieve is inspirational. In my books!
And on the same note, but in a different vein.......
Speaking of the forth Commandment.......'honouring thy father and they mother'....... what should we, as catholics expect of those that have had abusive mothers or alcoholic fathers? What does honour for their parents actually mean?
Should these children of despicable and disgusting parents, aviod telling the truth!, does it mean that they should avoid talking about their experiences and keep it all inside?, which in my book can cause the pain to grow inside! like a cancer!
Should these children forget the pain they suffer? and say all was good?
And how should the children of prostitutes or murderers speak about and honour their parents?
Many children today, have unwed mothers who take drugs and neglect their children, to such a degree that the child is placed in a home [if he or she is saved before their inevitable death] and in these 'homes' sometimes the children suffer added abuse!
How do we as Catholics expect these children to honour their parents? Just asking.
I know some of these children and I know that they often want to honour their parents but don't know how!
Sorry for the digression of my post, but the above is just a rhetorical question, as it is hard conundrum for me in my work!
God Bless one and all
It is much more complex then you make it to be. I can only speak for myself in saying I pray for Pope Francis daily that he will lead his flock in the fullness of the truths that have been revealed through 2000 years of magisterial teachings. I pray that he not cause confusion, but speak with clarity (as his predecessors did) so the faithful will not be lead into error. I pray that he not lead the church into formal schism. I pray that he will stop elevating clergy who are knowing LGBTQ advocates. This to me is "honoring thy father". Do not confuse those of us that support him by praying that he fulfill God's will, but do not support his ambiguity, his support of LGBTQ life styles, but not honoring his leadership of the Church in confusion. This is not love. Love is based on truth. Truth does not change.
I know you are trying to be charitable, and that is commendable. I try to do that as well, but in this instance I think it is misplaced. The Holy Father really has nothing to do with this conversation. We are speaking about a comment made by someone else. It is a comment made by a Cardinal clearly stating the benefits of an active homosexual relationship. David has clearly left the impression that he agrees with this comment. So far he has chosen to ignore many people who have questioned him about it. This only adds to the impression.
This is not about being loyal to the Holy Father. This is about error being promoted. Christ is the head of the Church and it belongs to Him. These are His Truths we are talking about here. In fact churchmen promoting homosexuality, adultery and other evils is the very battlefield that we are fighting on. To look the other way when it is done is to turn our backs to Christ.
I have to respond to Josephite's very kind post. She really has understood where I am coming from.
Mac had introduced comments made by Cardinal Schonborn a couple of years ago. Although I disagree with Praetorian and SgCatholic's view that the Cardinal was referring to a necessarily physical relationship, I think the Cardinal will not have assumed a platonic relationship. At the heart of the Cardinal's view is the need to lead people to the faith, the Church and the sacraments.
Now, taking the point that Josephite has made, while I am not totally at ease with the Cardinal's approach in the specific case mentioned above, I am totally at ease with the Holy Father and am very happy to be guided by him. I have not found any sustainable argument in support of those who see him leading the faithful astray. Whenever I read his homilies, I hear the Holy Spirit speaking.
Praetorian, I have responded to what you say here, to an extent, in the post I've just made.
Even if the Cardinal is mistaken in his approach to the case mentioned, he is not teaching error. This is actually a very good example of the quote by Pope Francis that The rigorist knows everything in advance, and those who are lax let go of everything.
Do tell us such stories too, AED.
I would love to hear them.
I proved he was speaking about a homosexual relationship by his use of the word "regular". There are no "irregular friendships".
I am sorry David, but telling someone a sexual homosexual relationship is okay and even promoting it is error. Period. This is not rigorism and I wish you would stop throwing around that ridiculous term. This is an example of liberal Modernist theology, which is not Catholic.
This is not Mercy, this is error and it leads souls to Hell.
Let me quickly respond to this because it is crucial. The Cardinal is NOT teaching that sexual relations between same genders "is ok". You or others may interpret his words that way, and that is partly why I'm not totally happy with this approach. But the Cardinal believes the relationship is not ok and wants the people to change their ways. You can view his approach as a mistake but he is not teaching error.
There is an old motto, 'My country right or wrong'. This motto is of course morally wrong for we cannot defend the morally indefensible. Nor in many circumstances can we keep quiet in the fave of evil.
We can take this motto and place it in our Catholic context as for many Catholics the motto, 'My Pope right or wrong', appears to be very apt. It is just as morally flawed to defend the wrong actions of a Pope as it is the wrong actions of one's country and in the same measure to keep silent can often be morally indefensible as well.
A good example of Popes who behaved badly were those who set up ghettos for the Jews in Italy and those who helped morally sponsor the Spanish Inquisition. I give a wonderful example such wrong doing in the link below. This is the story of a Jewish gentleman tortured to death by the Church in Mexico. I might add that torture was first authorized by Pope Innocent IV in 1252—not as a mode of punishment, but as a means of discovering truth.
Secret Mexican diary sheds light on Spanish Inquisition
By Natasha Pizzey Mexico City
4 June 2017
Luis de Carvajal used gold leaf from Bibles to decorate the diary
A story of torture, betrayal and persecution is captivating Mexicans almost 500 years after it happened.
The dramatic life and death of the Carvajal family in 16th-Century Mexico is in the spotlight after a decades-long search for a national treasure came to an unexpected happy ending.
Luis de Carvajal "The Young" came to Mexico - then known as New Spain - with his large, well-to-do family during the early colonisation of the Americas.
His family governed part of northern Mexico and soon made enemies, including a power-hungry viceroy keen to topple them from power.
The ambitious viceroy discovered that Luis de Carvajal was a practising Jew, a crime punishable by death in the times of the Spanish Inquisition
Older relatives had urged Luis de Carvajal to convert to Catholicism for his own safety, but he staunchly stuck to his faith.
When he was first arrested, the authorities let him off with a warning but kept tabs on him.
Far from giving up his religion, Luis de Carvajal became a leader in Mexico's underground Jewish community.
Luis de Carvajal chronicled his fall from governor to being sentenced to death in his tiny handwriting
When the inquisitors caught up with him again a few years later, he was sentenced to death. He was just 30 years old.
Before he was executed, he was tortured so badly that he revealed the names of 120 fellow Jewish people, historian Alicia Gojman explains.
His captors forced him to listen as those "heretics", which included his own mother, were tortured in the cell next to him.
"He tried to commit suicide because he couldn't cope with having told them about his family and friends, but didn't manage it," says Ms Gojman.
We know the excruciating details of Luis de Carvajal's persecution because he managed to keep secret diaries.
But these were not any old notebooks. They were painstakingly crafted, miniature manuscripts with almost microscopic handwriting in Latin and Spanish.
Some pages were intricately decorated with gold leaf he scraped from pages of a Bible.
Each of the three memoirs was no larger than a present-day iPhone, most likely so he could keep them hidden away under his hat.
The small size of the diaries meant they could be hidden easily
Luis de Carvajal wrote about being a young Jew in the New World, about exploring his heritage and practising his beliefs despite the dangers.
But much of the memoirs focus on his final tragic days before he was burned at the stake, with vivid descriptions of him falling to his knees upon hearing his mother's tortured screams as she was pulled on the rack.
Luis de Carvajal found comfort in poetry, writing verses and prayers to reaffirm his faith in the face of so much cruelty.
Luis de Carvajal's memoirs are treasured by Mexico's Jewish population as chronicles of keeping faith despite the ruthlessness of the Spanish Inquisition.
"Children who go to Jewish schools study the Carvajal family history," says Mauricio Lulka, executive director of the Central Committee for the Jewish Community in Mexico.
The history told in the diaries is taught in Jewish schools in Mexico today
For centuries, the delicate manuscripts were kept in Mexico's National Archives. They were treasured as being among the first artefacts documenting the arrival of Jews to the Americas and were studied by researchers from around the world.
But in 1932 they vanished, leading to suspicions among the small group of academics who had access to them that one of them may have stolen the precious diaries. After all, they were small enough to hide under a hat.
With no trace of the documents, the search was eventually suspended and the trail went cold.
More than 80 years after their disappearance, the London auction house Swann in 2016 listed "replicas" of the manuscript at an initial price of $1,500 (£1,150).
But a US collector of Judaica, Leonard Milberg, was suspicious.
Why would someone go to the trouble of recreating the minuscule handwriting of Luis de Carvajal's original to create a replica?
Intrigued, he contacted the Mexican consulate which confirmed that the originals were still missing and sent experts to check the "replicas" out.
Baltazar Brito is the director of the National Library of Anthropology and History in Mexico and one of the experts sent to assess the documents.
"When I got there, something told me they were originals, I knew it in my heart," he says.
Image caption Baltazar Brito said he had a "gut feeling" the documents were originals
For Mr Brito, the documents have relevance beyond their time.
"They tell the story of religious intolerance that we shouldn't let happen again in the world," he says. "Despite that, it still happens."
Leonard Milberg felt the manuscripts belonged in Mexico, so the collector made it his mission to deal with all the international agencies involved and covered the costs of sending them back.
Their safe return was welcome news for Mexico's now thriving Jewish community of about 50,000 people, many of whom were drawn to the country by its modern-day commitment to religious freedom.
After they were briefly exhibited in Mexico City they are now safely stored in a special climate-controlled vault in the National Library of Anthropology and History in Mexico, as no one wants to risk the miniature manuscripts disappearing for another eight decades.
I am sorry David but this quote, the one we are talking about:
Cardinal Schönborn spoke in the interview about a gay friend of his who, after many temporary relationships, is now in a stable relationship. “It’s an improvement,” he said. They share “a life, they share their joys and sufferings, they help one another. It must be recognised that this person took an important step for his own good and the good of others, even though it certainly is not a situation the Church can consider ‘regular’.”
This quote and ones like it are leading souls to Hell. Period.
It leaves active homosexuals with the impression that their lifestyle is okay. That is wrong. There is nothing "good" about entering into an active homosexual relationship. You can call it error or evil or whatever you want. I am sure the people who will be in Hell tormented forever won't be quibbling over if the Cardinal had the "wrong approach".
You are spouting liberal Modernism David and it is poison. Souls are being lost because of this garbage. I am sorry if this sounds harsh but it is true.
I truly like you, but you are either deluded or being disingenuous. I cannot see how you can be a member of this website and have seen all of the prophecies that have warned against exactly what you are espousing and still back it.
Cardinal Schonborn said what he said two years ago. The idea that someone like Cardinal Schonborn (or the Pope for that matter!) should not be allowed to be a member of this forum seems a somewhat extremist position! You are obviously very sure of your beliefs but they they are not shared by the Church as a whole.
Just to repeat, Cardinal Schonborn is not teaching error. He is teaching us that we must lead people, whenever possible, back to the Faith. He believes that physical relations between same genders is sinful.
First off please don't put words in my mouth. I never said anyone couldn't be a member of this forum. It isn't even my forum to make that claim and I never would.
My point was that you area a member of this forum and have seen all of the prophecies warning of what is happening. How can you ignore them?
I will repeat you are spouting liberal Modernism and it is poison. I see no way encouraging a homosexual relationship is "leading souls back to the faith". That seems very twisted thinking to me. It is not in any way, shape or form doing that and to think so is a pipe dream.
A final response from me for today anyway
Please try to recognise that when you or I are saying something in a post, we are giving our opinions. That is the nature of a forum. We really shouldn't be threatening those with different views as doomed to hell fire.
But to respond to your comment about the prophecies. Yes, we have had many prophecies about apostasy in the Church. We have been suffering from it for a long long time. Only God can rescue us and He will.
Separate names with a comma.