Oh I think you are exactly right....a full council would probably result in a vote of confidence. That's the next big question....will a full council be impanaled? If they do meet, I'm betting there still will not be any clarity on AL. Then what? Will that be the line in the sand?
I don't know. I suppose it depends on whether Cardinal Bourke issues a correction. I haven't a clue what form a correction would take although I suppose it would be some kind of formal letter. Then, perhaps it would depend on how much detail it contained. If it were simply accusation that AL contains doctrinal errors, then I suppose the Cardinals would have to support the accusation and the Pope along with whoever actually wrote it would refute the accusation. If the correction claimed that the Pope had failed in his duty to prevent the spread of error by permitting conflicting interpretations of AL, perhaps the argument would be about how much leeway Bishops have in interpreting Church teaching. I think it unlikely that it would be confined to a vote of confidence because they will want to make it look like they have given the charges serious consideration before giving him his vote of confidence. If a Council were called, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Vatican call for each diocese to consult the faithful before responding (the sensus fidelium). Should that happen, we can expect to see plenty of Catholic Spring types show up at the meetings although they might have trouble finding the venue if it's held anywhere near where Sunday Mass is celebrated.
Beth I have gone through a whole range of emotions, discussions with my confessor, anger, fury, sadness, discouragement--and I have finally ended at a place of calm. God has permitted this. It is ripping open all the fault lines in the post VII church. The band aids are off that JPII and BXVI had placed over the wounds. As far as we know, Pope Francis is our pope elected by conclave. I can't go further in my imagination about that fact. He is pope. So I have decided to go light over heavy ground. Whatever my opinions are of whatever is coming from Rome, I am just going to pray. Pray. Pray and pray some more. We are all crossing a spiritual mine field here. I intend to stay very little and child like if I can, and hold on to the Blessed Mother.
Isn't that the truth! The Catholic Spring will come out of their hole....guess they will need google map to find their way
I can sure understand where you are now. I'm always having the debate in my heart of staying silent, or sounding the alarm. I'm not saying my decision to post my feelings are correct...I honestly don't know. I don't doubt what is going on....just where I need to be with this. How you are dealing with this may be the right road. Maybe I just need to pray more. I guess I'm sorry that the church has gone so far left up until now.....wondering if we had acted sooner could we have prevented this. But I also agree that the Lord did permit it....and my clanging the bell maybe only helps me deal with it rather than have any positive effect. Maybe just venting... Thank you for your thoughts....a lot of wisdom in them.
Thank you Beth. I meant no criticism to any one who is speaking out. I've done it myself. I'm just saying that I've arrived at this place because I seemed to get a direction from the Holy Spirit--for me. And I discussed it with my confessor and so I've decided to just keep turning it over to God and praying for His Will to be done. I'm glad there are people sounding the alarm. But I think I will be part of the back up troop, praying for everyone involved in the battle.
Oh AED...no offense taken. I may arrive where you are when I learn to control my feelings a bit better I've had a neck and shoulder injury that has me laid up more than usual, hence my rapid, numerous post. And today Im posting with watery eyes and a aching head cold...so needless to say, I'm not in such a forgiving mood If the benadryl kicks in anytime soon, I'm likely to be in la la land
Oh that cold!!I know all about it. I have had it in several stages over the last several weeks. It's a beast. Take care of yourself. It doesn't leave easily. God bless. (I love benedryl--it makes me sleepy--always nice to drift off into a deep sleep)
The well known blogger, Fr. Longenecker, has taken a fairly relaxed view of AL until recently but is now very worried following comments made on the document by the leader of the Jesuits, Fr. Abascal. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2017/02/top-jesuit-jesuitical.html His worries arise not only from the, now clear, intention to apply a dispensation to the divorced and 'remarried' (whose consciences 'approve') but that the Jesuit leader's interpretation appears to open up the possibility of permitting reception of the Sacraments in other situations such as co-habiting homosexuals. Are we surprised? 'They can, so we can' - has no logical end except in Anglican's 'anything goes' if it feels OK.
Beth, I feel for you. I've had to take to the bed with a streaming cold and my mood has been darkening by the day. I ventured outdoors for a few minutes yesterday and felt like I had run a marathon. I couldn't have coped with an injury on top of that. It's the background to this whole debacle that really gets under my skin. Knowing that this agenda has been hatched for decades in scheming disobedience to reigning Popes and now being asked to swallow that the Holy Spirit is springing a surprise on us. They must think that Baptism washes away our use of reason along with original sin. Bored and cranky in bed, I have been doing some reading online. This piece in the Remnant caught my attention: https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/in...in-resistance-an-irish-saint-rebukes-the-pope It's the text of a letter to Pope Boniface from St. Columbanus, and Irish saint of the late 6th/early 7th century who did some evangelising in parts of France, Germany, Belgium, Northern Italy, Austria and Switzerland. The saint had his successes and failures. He fell foul of a Frankish king for telling him to marry his mistress and stop living in sin. Columban's problem with St. Boniface was the Pope's tardiness in dealing with heretics and schismatics. There's lots of grovelling, self-effacing and gushing language in the letter but there's also this: "I call out boldly to you, our masters, the helms- men and mystic oarsmen of our spiritual ship: Watch, for the sea is in uproar, vexed with death-bringing storm- winds; watch, for the water has already entered the ship of the Church, and she is in danger of sinking!" and this: "It is your fault if you have turned aside from the true faith, if “you have made void your first faith ”. With good reason your inferiors resist you; with good reason they refuse to communicate with you as long as the memory of the impious has not been branded with infamy and given up to oblivion. If there is more truth than falsehood in the reports spread about you, the roles are reversed; your sons are — it grieves me sorely to say so — “ as the head and you are as the tail ”. Those who have always remained true to the orthodox faith, even though they be your inferiors, will be your judges… Coincidentally, reading some more about St. Columban, I discovered that he left one of his monks in what is now Switzerland. That monk was St. Gall who lived as a hermit and gained a reputation for holiness. 100 years after the death of St. Gall, an abbey dedicated to his memory was built on the site of his hermit's cell and the town of St. Gallen, including the Cathedral, grew around it. The Bishop of St. Gallen was one of the group who decided they wanted Cardinal Bergoglio to be Pope and that's where they held their meetings, naming themselves the St. Gallen Mafia. Anyway, AED's approach is best and I'm going to make a real effort to adopt it. What's the point of getting angry? I'm worn out praying for the Pope but I suppose I had better persevere in the hope that God will give me credit for persistence and work a miracle. He did promise that the gates of hell would not prevail, so I should be on safe ground asking that His will be done.
At those who are struggling with the symptoms of 'the common cold.' Did you see the article about common remedies for various conditions. The two that got my attention was Lemonade is good for people who have a tendency to get kidney stones. It appears it stops the whatever forming in your kidneys. Is that not cool or what. And probiotic yogurt builds up resistance to 'the common cold.' Well, I used to always have a yogurt every day for years and when I was on night nursing, always wondered why I never seemed to get colds or flu for that matter, although people I worked with did. So I have started having a probiotic yogurt again every day. Fingers crossed it will work. LOL More on subject in hand. Our parish Priest recently used the chance to tell us from the pulpit that there was a Bishop hundreds of years ago who fought homosexuality in the Church, because it is wrong. I can't remember the name of the saint. But was our parish Priest cool or what to speak the Truth. The feast day was Tuesday 21st February 2017, if anyone has the energy to look it up.
There was something on the news last week about taking Vitamin D to ward off colds. I take a Vitamin D supplement but ran out last month and didn't bother getting a new supply. Was the homily about St. Peter Damian? There were plenty of problems in the Church of his time: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11764a.htm
Thank you Dolorus, Sorry for your illness too!!! The flu will be gone in about a week I hope, but the back/ neck is probably chronic now. I really want to go outdoors...it's going to hit the 70's today and the sun is out!! But, I'm lucky to get myself a cup of tea! It's makes you have a appreciation for others though. A dear friend in our rosary prayer group has MS...for over 25 years now. When I see her life......with all that goes with that, I just don't know how some folks cope. She says its grace. She never complains, always wears a smile and I just love her. It's these suffering souls who make me feel like an utter wimp when I get the least little thing. Boy, you really did some deep reading! I had wondered where the term St. Gallan Mafia had originated! I need to read about that bishop....I bet there was so much more going on behind the scenes....maybe we don't want to know... AED 's approach to this pope resonated with me too. If I have any doubts about where he is taking our church, I feel like we will know for certain in not too long. I know the only thing we really can do is pray, but it's like watching your house go up in flames and you want to scream fire....! If the liturgy changes that are being discussed actually happen, I think we will know where he is taking things. My sincere hope is that the cardinals who remain faithful to the church will be able to lead us if worse comes to worse.
I'm almost better now, thanks, and should be up and out tomorrow. Sadly, there won't be any sunshine here. The Bishop of St. Gallen had been secretary to the European Bishops' Conference and, according to him, after leaving that post he and some like-minded bishops decided to keep in contact to discuss Church related matters. From what I have read and to put it delicately, it has been hinted that inclusivity for homosexuals was of particular concern to those bishops. I suppose that there has been a remnant of Lutheran/Calvin types within the Church ever since the Reformation, probably working away behind the scenes. Given man's fallen nature, the Protestant approach to primacy of conscience over Doctrine is bound to have had its adherents especially among clerics finding it hard to keep their vows. Weak people are easy prey to the "anything's ok if you can square it with your own conscience" doctrine. It never went away. Pope Paul IV feared that a closet protestant would be elected as his successor and issued a Papal Bull addressing the possibility. That in itself is proof that the Church has not always believed that a heretic cannot be elected to the papacy or that a reigning pope cannot be a heretic. Benedictines founded the abbey in St. Gallen. The Columbans followed a rule similar but not quite as strict as the Benedictines. From what I read, the Columban disciplines at that time were very severe. I can't begin to imagine what it was like for the stricter Benedictines. I'm not sure that the Abbey in St. Gallen is still in Catholic ownership. I'm pretty sure that the library and university are not. Fruits of the Reformation. Whatever happens within the Church, we must trust that eventually the Holy Spirit will take the best and discard the rest even if God leaves us stewing in our own juice for a very long time. I suppose that we bring these troubles on ourselves because we don't pray enough for our clergy, something I confess to especially prior to this papacy. Hope your neck and back trouble can be alleviated soon.
Bogged down with the sniffles here too - I have heard that zinc is a great antidote, but you have to take it before you get a cold. My left knee is v painful too - I have arthritis in both knees but having tried very hard to lose weight recently, I have felt an improvement. I do hope that the cold bug is the cause, so it isn't an escalating annoyance requiring another injection. Some years ago I and two friends started to meet together to pray. We've kept it up ever since but don't meet together as often as we did. Well today we had a meeting. I brought up the troubles so many of us on MOG are discerning in the Church. I expected one friend to agree and the other to sit on the fence. What was interesting was that we all three accepted that there is a serious problem in Rome, one that we have not seen in our lifetimes. The friend that I expected to be unwilling to accept the gravity of it all was totally on board after we had outlined a few incidents of this papacy. She is well educated and knew at once what the copro- words meant. The other two of us agreed that we often pray for enlightenment if we are wrong. That we don't want this to be true.... I admit I did feel relieved. It's one thing to sit at a computer typing away but another to be having a flesh and blood discussion. We prayed that God's will be done and that he and only he be glorified in the Church. And that the Church be a worthy bride of Christ. One thing I was not aware of was that the Franciscans of the Immaculate were actually shut down. One of my friends suggested praying to St Maximilian Kolbe for them. She knows the order rather better than I do. They may have been shut down, but the individual priests aren't going anywhere. A poster earlier said that perhaps this is all to the good because it is flushing out the toxins. I keep thinking of that saying in 'I Claudius' - "Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud come out".
Dolorus, Do you personally believe that this group actually did meet for said purpose...to help elect PF..... It makes sense if true. If there were a significant group of gays at this meeting,.... organizing, then it's entirely possible that AL is a back door for all "irregular" relationship to be admitted to the sacraments. Do I have this right?
Clare, I'm trying to avoid perscription pain killers and I'm trying Tumeric supplements that are know to combat inflammation. I've taken two a day for three days now but I'm told I may need to take them for awhile before I find significant relief. If they work, I'll let you know....if not, I'll offer it up for someone I know! You and your friends are a good source of grace to pray for PF. I read that all of our little, faithful prayer groups are very powerful before the throne of God. So just maybe we can be the answer! The ladies in my prayer group did ask me to update them on all of this...I was surprised too. It gave me hope. Others could care less. But I always keep that quote " when two or more are gathered in my name....." foremost on my mind. I think it is very powerful.
I don't think that helping elect Pope Francis specifically was the purpose of setting up the group. There's plenty of references to the group on the internet. I gather that they started meeting in 1996. Pope John Paul was diagnosed with Parkinson's in 1991 and by the time the group was set up the symptoms were so obvious that the Vatican had admitted publicly that he had a neurological disorder without naming Parkinson's. The group seems to have been something of a deniable open secret until the publication of the Daneels biography. The biographer supposedly said in an interview that the Francis election was planned and executed in St. Gallen and that the group was responsible for Benedict's resignation (or words to that effect). That was in an early radio report in St. Gallen but was rowed back in a later report. Whether the change happened because the first report was inaccurate or because of the enormity of its implications probably depends on who is relating the story. There's no doubt that Francis was the group's choice, as has been confirmed by Cardinal Daneels. On foot of the radio report, the Swiss Bishops issued a statement denying the claims made in the radio report, and the former Bishop Furer who had retired in 2005 (six month after the death of Pope John Paul), made a statement confirming that there had been a group of friends who met regularly in St. Gallen from 1996 until 2006. The group was set up at his and Caredinal Martini's initiative. He said that they had "discussed the qualities a new pope should have" when Pope John Paul's health was declining. He said that the group held discussions during the pre-Conclave in 2005 - the Conclave which subsequently elected Pope Benedict; that it was wrong to claim they had anything to do with the resignation of Pope Benedict because the meetings ceased in 2006 and the resignation was in 2013. He made no secret of his pleasure at seeing Pope Francis elected. He was no longer Bishop of St. Gallen when he says the group disbanded. There's nothing to say that the group didn't reconvene elsewhere. I'm fairly sure I read a report about Cardinal Martini telling Pope Benedict to resign because he had failed to reform the Curia. In the early stages after the election of Pope Francis, the reports were that he was a complete unknown - a bolt from the blue. I think that one Cardinal actually said as much in an interview. Later it transpired that he had been the runner up to Pope Benedict. The guy from the Soros funded group Catholics United sang Cardinal Bergoglio's praises and more or less tipped him in a CNN interview shortly after Pope Benedict's resignation. Cardinal Bernadin, who was in Rome at the time of the Conclave although not a voting member, stated that someone from Italy came to his room before the conclave and told him he thought that Bergoglio could be elected. Cardinal Bernadin, who had participated in the previous Conclave, claimed complete surprise at that news. Make what you will of it, Beth, but it reflects badly on all of them. Were they a homosexual mafia? I don't know. I do know that AL opens the door wide for people living openly in homosexual unions to be given Communion and probably for the Church to eventually have some kind of ceremony celebrating or blessing such unions. At least one Bishop has said that AL does permit Communion for people in same sex unions. Much stress has been put on AL saying something to the effect that homosexual marriage is unacceptable. Big deal. St. John Paul said that it was impossible for the Church to give Holy Communion to people living in objectively adulterous unions. If Pope Francis can render Pope John Paul's statement irrelevant, a future Pope can overrule Pope Francis's statement about homosexual marriage.
