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AL is a ticking ‘atomic bomb’ set to obliterate all Catholic morality

Discussion in 'Church Critique' started by BrianK, Aug 24, 2017.

  1. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    lifesitenews.com
    Amoris Laetitia is a ticking ‘atomic bomb’ set to obliterate all Catholic morality: philosopher | News
    Pete Baklinski
    5-7 minutes
    August 23, 2017 (LifeSiteNews) — One of the world’s top Catholic philosophers has called Pope’ Francis’ Exhortation Amoris Laetitia a ticking “theological atomic bomb” that has the capacity to entirely destroy all Catholic moral teaching.

    Dr. Josef Seifert, founding rector of the International Academy of Philosophy in Liechtenstein, said the only way the theological bomb can be defused is by Pope Francis retracting at least one major error in his 2016 Exhortation.

    With philosophical precision, Seifert pinpoints the main problem in Amoris Laetitia (AL) to a passage that he said suggests that God actively wills people, in certain situations, to commit acts that have always been considered objectively evil by the Catholic Church.

    He quotes directly from passage 303 of Amoris where Pope Francis speaks about “irregular couples” living in habitual adultery who decide to forgo following the Six Commandment.

    “Yet conscience can do more than recognize that a given situation does not correspond objectively to the overall demands of the Gospel,” wrote Pope Francis in his 2016 Exhortation.

    “It can also recognize with sincerity and honesty what for now is the most generous response which can be given to God, and come to see with a certain moral security that it is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal,” he added.

    Commented Seifert: “In other words, besides calling an objective state of grave sin, euphemistically, ‘not yet fully the objective ideal,’ AL says that we can know with ‘a certain moral security’ that God himself asks us to continue to commit intrinsically wrong acts, such as adultery or active homosexuality.”

    But Seifert pointed out that if just one intrinsically immoral act, such as adultery, can be permitted and even willed by God, then there is nothing stopping such a principle being applied to “all acts considered ‘intrinsically wrong.’”

    If it is true that God can want an adulterous couple to live in adultery against the Sixth Commandment, he said, then there is nothing to keep the other nine Commandments from falling.

    According to such logic, Seifert continued, evils such as murder, abortion, euthanasia, suicide, lying, thievery, perjury, and betrayal can be “justified in some cases and ‘be what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal.’”

    “Does not pure logic demand that we draw this consequence from this proposition of Pope Francis?” the philosopher said.

    Seifert said that if his above question is answered in the affirmative, then the “purely logical consequence of that one assertion of Amoris Laetitia seems to destroy the entire moral teaching of the Church.”

    The professor’s concern is similar to one of the dubia (questions) raised by the four cardinals to Pope Francis last year asking him to clarify the meaning of his Exhortation.

    Question two of five asks the Pope if, with the publication of Amoris, does one still need to regard as valid the teaching of St. John Paul II in Veritatis Splendor that there are “absolute moral norms that prohibit intrinsically evil acts and that are binding without exceptions?”

    In his paper, Seifert pleaded with Pope Francis to withdraw and condemn the notion that God sometimes wills people to commit intrinsically evil acts.

    “If this is truly what AL affirms, all alarm over AL’s direct affirmations regarding matters of changes of sacramental discipline refer only to the peak of an iceberg, to the weak beginning of an avalanche, or to the first few buildings destroyed by a moral theological atomic bomb that threatens to tear down the whole moral edifice of the Ten Commandments and of Catholic moral teaching,” he said.

    Leaving such a notion uncorrected will lead to “nothing less than to a total destruction of the moral teachings of the Catholic Church,” he concluded.

    Last week, Cardinal Raymond Burke, one of the four cardinals who signed the dubia almost one year ago, outlined how the process for issuing a “formal correction” of the Pope would proceed if the Pope continued in his refusal to clarify his teaching.

    “It seems to me that the essence of the correction is quite simple,” Burke explained.

    “On the one hand, one sets forth the clear teaching of the Church; on the other hand, what is actually being taught by the Roman Pontiff is stated. If there is a contradiction, the Roman Pontiff is called to conform his own teaching in obedience to Christ and the Magisterium of the Church,” he said.

    “Pope Francis has chosen not to respond to the five dubia, so it is now necessary simply to state what the Church teaches about marriage, the family, acts that are intrinsically evil, and so forth. These are the points that are not clear in the current teachings of the Roman Pontiff; therefore, this situation must be corrected. The correction would then direct itself principally to those doctrinal points,” he added.

    Dr. Josef Seifert paper: Does pure Logic threaten to destroy the entire moral Doctrine of the Catholic Church?
     
  2. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    People have failed to comprehend the grave nature of the threat to Catholicism itself posed by this papacy. This spells it out.

    Apostasy
     
    DivineMercy, Blizzard and gracia like this.
  3. gracia

    gracia Angels

    It's Protestantism. Francis, if sincere in pushing this garbage theology, is the Enemy. He's on the same platform as Luther.
     
    Mary's child likes this.
  4. Don_D

    Don_D Powers

    Cardinal Burke nails it !!!
    Posted on August 23, 2017by abyssum
    [​IMG]

    the Vortex
    The Church Militant
    APOSTASY
    That’s the only word that applies.
    August 23, 2017


    TRANSCRIPT

    As we shared with you yesterday, all this week the staff here at the apostolate will be having in-service days, making plans for the next year, programming decisions, training and so forth. So, for this week, we will be providing you with abbreviated Vortex episodes — today, the interview of Cdl. Raymond Burke with our friends at The Wanderer where he did a “drop mic” on the question of the unfaithfulness of so many leaders in the Church these days and the resulting apostasy.

    His Eminence simply nailed it — apostasy. That’s the only word that applies — a total walking away from the Faith, a denial of what or rather who the Church is and who is the Church, no less than Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God present on earth to continue His saving mission throughout time through the agency of men. How evil when the ordained class succumbs to apostasy. There could be nothing worse than apostolic apostasy, which is what we have in the case of corrupt, weak and cowardly bishops and clerics.

    Cardinal Burke’s words hearken back to St. Peter’s denunciation of Judas in the Book of Acts when the first pope declared that Judas had, in fact, had a share in salvation and had lost it along with his apostleship, having gone to “his own place.” Judas was the first apostate. Unfortunately, he is not the last. But just as St. Peter called it out in his day, so too does it need calling out in this day so that the faithful may not be lead even more into error.

    Face the facts, there are Judases, traitors and apostates who are running loose in the Church these days. They deny Christ. They deny His Holy Church. They must absolutely be exposed and opposed.
     
    gracia and BrianK like this.
  5. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come

    But Seifert pointed out that if just one intrinsically immoral act, such as adultery, can be permitted and even willed by God, then there is nothing stopping such a principle being applied to “all acts considered ‘intrinsically wrong.’”

    If it is true that God can want an adulterous couple to live in adultery against the Sixth Commandment, he said, then there is nothing to keep the other nine Commandments from falling.

    According to such logic, Seifert continued, evils such as murder, abortion, euthanasia, suicide, lying, thievery, perjury, and betrayal can be “justified in some cases and ‘be what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal.’”

    “Does not pure logic demand that we draw this consequence from this proposition of Pope Francis?” the philosopher said.


    The logic is flawless. Thanks for bringing to our attention this excellent article!

    This is what is sadly missing today: clear and bold thinking, in line with 2,000 years of tradition.

    It is clear why the present pope has recently critised those who rigidly follow the Ten commandments.

    Those pesky ten commandments stand in the way of the new church they want to build. Sorry if this sounds blunt.

    But last time I checked Our Lord came to confirm the Law and the prophets, not to abolish them.

    This is truly astounding: by denying absolute moral truths and the ten commandments the church is simply betraying... CHRIST!


    [​IMG]
     
  6. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    DivineMercy, Julia, Dolours and 2 others like this.
  7. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come

    Maybe the church leaders didn´t get the ten commandments. They may need to hear them in different translations so the meaning becomes really clear.

    But they´re still... THE TEN COMMANDMENTS!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    HeavenlyHosts and gracia like this.
  8. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    In my personal life I have long described the situation of Amoris Laetitia and the dubia as an iceberg and a ship approaching each other slowly. Both are large and weighty and headed for each other on a collision course. We can see they will collide and cause great havok, it is just a matter of when. I have been very cautious in commenting about the dubia because quite frankly I didn't know if the four (now three) Cardinals would actually go through with a fraternal correction or not. It appears from this last interview by Cardinal Burke in The Wanderer that not only will they do it, but it does not seem far off. We all need to pray very hard right now. The Church is at a precipice. All of Heaven is watching what we do in this moment.

    What we do in life echoes in eternity...

     
    Tanker, sterph, Dolours and 4 others like this.
  9. Praetorian,

    Could you possibly provide a link for Cardinal Burke's last article in The Wanderer?
     
  10. padraig

    padraig New Member

     
    Don_D and Julia like this.
  11. Carol55

    Carol55 Powers

    Texas Mama of 2,

    I hope Praetorian doesn't mind me providing the link for you, http://thewandererpress.com/catholi...nding-christ-and-his-church-with-true-love-2/

    You may also be interested in the following article from LifeSiteNews which contains quotes from the Wanderer's interview with Cardinal Burke,
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/c...formal-correction-of-pope-francis-will-look-l

    also mentioned in the following OnePeterFive article,
    https://onepeterfive.com/cardinal-b...-said-must-continue-fighting-church-teaching/

    also mentioned in the following NationalCatholicRegister article,
    http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edwa...es-formal-correction-of-pope-francis-teaching

    PS- I realized that it is the LifeSiteNews article above that I was thinking of. Specifically, the following quote, "The exhortation has been used by various bishops and bishops’ groups, including those in Argentina, Malta, Germany, and Belgium, to issue pastoral guidelines that allow Communion to be given to civilly-divorced-and-remarried Catholics living in adultery."
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
    gracia and BrianK like this.
  12. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Sure Texas Mama :)
    Here is the latest Cardinal Burke interview. It is a 3 part piece. Each part of the interview covers different areas.

    Part 1
    http://thewandererpress.com/catholi...fending-christ-and-his-church-with-true-love/

    Part 2
    http://thewandererpress.com/catholi...nding-christ-and-his-church-with-true-love-2/

    Part 3
    http://thewandererpress.com/catholi...t-and-his-church-with-true-love-3/#more-19467
     
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  13. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    One detail here is that we keep mentioning the bishops of Argentina, but the reality is there is a fierce opposition to the pope in Argentina regarding AL (outside Buenos Aires). It was the bishops of Buenos Aires only who issued the guidelines allowing communion for remarried divorcees. Other bishops in Argentina have issued guidelines of AL, like this week the bishop of the diocese of San Luis, confirming the magisterium without ambiguity and with very precise instructions for remarried divorcees.

    Today, after seeing the Vatican has just published the letter of Pope Francis to Buenos Aires bishops officially approving communion for remarried divorcees (and even stating "there is no other interpretation" of AL), I have prayed to the Lord and Our Mother my deep concern and asked Him to give the cardinals the strength and clarity of conscience they need to fratternally correct our pope ASAP, if that is God's will - I hope you can do the same.
     
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  14. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    We might not realize it yet, but today is a turning point with the Vatican publication of this letter.

    We are turning the corner from material heresy to obstinate formal heresy on the part of this pope. He might not be there yet but his trajectory is obvious.
     
    DivineMercy and gracia like this.
  15. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    I think the publication of the letter on the vatican website is the last 'icing on the cake' after the declarations this past weeks of bishops and cardinals from his close circle, like Fernandez or Schonborn, stating that things have change, and the pope wants remarried divorcees to be able to access communion after a path of discernment.

    But other bishops as we speak continue to publish their guidelines confirming the Magisterium, so at some point the 'iceberg' and the 'ship', as someone mentioned are going to collide - and the pope is going to have to confront the reality that he is teaching against the magisterium and sit down with his brother cardinals. I think many bishops are ready to defend the Magisterium up to the point of excommunication. And it is possible the hijackers will push the pope to excommunicate certain prelates, just like the Arians pushed pope Liberius to excommunicate St Athanasius.
     
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  16. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    https://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2017/08/josef-seifert-does-pure-logic-threaten.html?m=1

    Does pure logic threaten to destroy the entire moral doctrine of the Catholic Church?
    There is a single affirmation in AL, however, that has nothing to do with a recognition of the rights of subjective conscience, by reference to which Rocco Buttiglione seeks to demonstrate the full harmony between the moral magisterium of Saint John Paul II and Pope Francis, against Robert Spaemann’s and other assertions of a clear break between them. Buttiglione argues that, regarding their contrary teaching on sacramental discipline, Pope John Paul II is correct if one considers only the objective content of human acts, while Pope Francis is right when one accords, after due discernment, to subjective factors and missing conditions of mortal sin (deficient knowledge and weakness of free will) their proper role and recognition.



    The assertion of AL I wish to investigate here, however, does not invoke subjective conscience at all, but claims a totally objective divine will for us to commit, in certain situations, acts that are intrinsically wrong, and have always been considered such by the Church. Since God can certainly not have a lack of ethical knowledge, an “erring conscience,” or a weakness of free will, this text does not “defend the rights of human subjectivity,” as Buttiglione claims, but appears to affirm clearly that these intrinsically disordered and objectively gravely sinful acts, as Buttiglione admits, can be permitted, or can even objectively be commanded, by God. If this is truly what AL affirms, all alarm over AL’s direct affirmations, regarding matters of changes of sacramental discipline (admitting, after due discernment, adulterers, active homosexuals, and other couples in similar situations to the sacraments of confession and eucharist, and, logically, also of baptism, confirmation, and matrimony, without their willingness to change their lives and to live in total sexual abstinence, which Pope John Paul II demanded in Familiaris Consortio from couples in such “irregular situations”), refer only to the peak of an iceberg, to the weak beginning of an avalanche, or to the first few buildings destroyed by a moral theological atomic bomb that threatens to tear down the whole moral edifice of the 10 commandments and of Catholic Moral Teaching.

    In the present paper, however, I will not claim that this is the case. On the contrary, I will leave it entirely to the Pope or to any reader to answer the question whether or not there is at least one affirmation in Amoris Laetitia that has the logical consequence of destroying the entire Catholic moral teaching. And I must admit that what I read about a commission convened in order to “re-examine” Humanae Vitae, an Encyclical that put, like later Veritatis Splendor, a definitive end to decades of ethical and moral theological debates, has made this title question of my essay a matter of extreme concern to me.



    Let us read the decisive text (AL 303), which is being applied by Pope Francis to the case of adulterous or otherwise “irregular couples” who decide not to follow the demand addressed in the Encyclical Familiaris Consortio of Saint Pope John Paul II to such “irregular couples”. Pope John Paul II tells these couples to either separate entirely or, if this is impossible, to abstain entirely from sexual relations. Pope Francis states, however:

    Yet conscience can do more than recognize that a given situation does not correspond objectively to the overall demands of the Gospel. It can also recognize with sincerity and honesty what for now is the most generous response which can be given to God (Relatio Finalis 2015, 85) and come to see with a certain moral security that it is what God himself is asking amid the concrete complexity of one’s limits, while yet not fully the objective ideal (AL 303).


    From the previous as well as from the later context it is clear that this “will of God” here refers to continuing to live in what constitutes objectively a grave sin. Cf., for example, AL 298, Footnote 329:

    “In such situations, many people, knowing and accepting the possibility of living ‘as brothers and sisters’ which the Church offers them, point out that if certain expressions of intimacy are lacking, ‘it often happens that faithfulness is endangered and the good of the children suffers’.”

    In Gaudium et Spes, 51, from which the last quote is taken, the thought is taken as an invalid objection against the moral demand never to commit adultery or an act of contraception. In AL it is understood in the sense explained above, as a justification, even known to correspond to the objective will of God, to continue to commit objectively speaking grave sins.
     
  17. Thank you so much, Carol55! I will have lots of weekend reading to do... and I'm sure Praetorian won't mind at all! :)(y)
     
    Carol55 likes this.
  18. Julia

    Julia Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.

    Bishop Fulton Sheens video nails the whole crux of the problem we face in this trial facing all of us regarding how and why things have gone so far off the 'narrow' path that leads to Heaven. This is where ignoring the Sixth Commandment has led us. Just one Commandment ignored with so many consequences, it is mind boggling.

    And I truly am convinced this situation is not the ticking time bomb; Humane Vitae was the ticking time bomb that was planted when Blessed Paul IV was ignored in Humane Vitae forty or fifty years ago. The danger was that Bishops and other clergy did not stay with the Holy Father then in his wisdom, and now we are paying the price of disobedience. We need to pray for Holy Father Francis and the Cardinals, Bishops and Priests that Holy Spirit will lift the scales from their eyes as well as the rest of us, and with God's help we can repent and turn back to God, Who has the solution ready once we humble ourselves before Him and admit we need Him and His representative in the Chair of Peter.
     
    gracia likes this.
  19. HeavenlyHosts

    HeavenlyHosts Archangels

    I can see your point
     
  20. fallen saint

    fallen saint Baby steps :)

    al is not ticking time bomb...I'm more like a fluffy bear.

    Brother al
     
    Marie-Lou, CathyG, gracia and 2 others like this.

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