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Again, the difference in employing the terms "material heresy" and "formal heresy"

Discussion in 'Questions and Answers' started by BrianK, Aug 4, 2016.

  1. picadillo

    picadillo Powers


    The new and better catholic church from Pope Francis:

    Kaine Seeks To Rope In ‘Pope Francis Catholics’
    August 4, 2016 by sd

    From Breitbart:

    [​IMG]

    Hillary Clinton’s running mate Tim Kaine wants the Catholics he describes as “Pope Francis Catholics” to vote for Hillary Clinton this fall.

    During a rally in Philadelphia, Kaine reminded Democrats that he went to a Jesuit High School which drew cheers from the crowd.

    “Well, Jesuits aren’t that big an applause line in every city, but I’m glad to know in Philadelphia,” Kaine said. “I bet there were a lot of Pope Francis Catholics here before there was a Pope Francis.”

    [For Full Story]
     
  2. CrewDog

    CrewDog Guest

    In the Pic above you are looking at the faces of.... at the very least, satan's useful idiots.... or, very likely, satan's disciples! I'm in the "Camp" that believes that Election 2016 does not matter but ... still... I will make sure that I Vote Against the Party of ABORTION, Sexual Perversion and BigBro Gubermint in your home, business AND CHURCH!!

    GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!
     
    gracia and fallen saint like this.
  3. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Well, I've only just encountered this dreadful thread but as Brian has quoted LifeSiteNews' version of the Pope's morning homily from June, let me copy here the original text of the homily which is certainly directed at the traditionalists that criticize him so much:

    Pope: Those who say “this or nothing” are heretics not Catholics
    [​IMG]

    09/06/2016 13:31

    (Vatican Radio) Pope Francis warned on Thursday against an excessive rigidity, saying those within the Church who tell us “it’s this or nothing” are heretics and not Catholics. His remarks came during the morning Mass on Thursday celebrated at the Santa Marta residence.

    In his homily the Pope reflected on the harm caused by Churchmen who do the opposite of what they preach and urged them to free themselves from a rigid idealism that prevents reconciliation between each other.

    Taking his cue from Jesus’ warning to his disciples that unless their righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees they will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, Pope Francis stressed the importance of Christian realism. Jesus, he said, asks us to go beyond the laws and love God and neighbour, stressing that whoever is angry with their brother will be liable to judgement.

    Insulting our brother is like giving a slap to his soul

    The Pope said we have “a very creative vocabulary for insulting others” but stressed that such insults are a sin and are akin to killing because they are giving a slap to our brother’s soul and to his dignity. Noting the presence of several children at the Mass, Pope Francis urged them to stay calm, saying the preaching of a child in a church is much more beautiful than that of a priest, bishop or of the Pope.

    A Churchman who does the opposite of what he preaches is a scandal

    Jesus, said the Pope, urged his confused people to look beyond and go forward. But at the same time, Christ warned about the harm caused to the people of God by Christians who do not follow their own teachings.

    “How many times do we in the Church hear these things: how many times! ‘But that priest, that man or that woman from the Catholic Action, that bishop, or that Pope tell us we must do this this way!’ and then they do the opposite. This is the scandal that wounds the people and prevents the people of God from growing and going forward. It doesn’t free them. In addition, these people had seen the rigidity of those scribes and Pharisees and when a prophet came to give them a bit of joy, they (the scribes and Pharisees) persecuted them and even murdered them; there was no place for prophets there. And Jesus said to them, to the Pharisees: ‘you have killed the prophets, you have persecuted the prophets: those who were bringing fresh air.’”

    Follow the healthy realism of the Church: No to idealism and rigidity

    Pope Francis urged his listeners to recall how Jesus’s request for generosity and holiness is all about going forward and always looking out beyond ourselves. This, he explained, frees us from the rigidity of the laws and from an idealism that harms us. Jesus knows only too well our nature, said the Pope, and asks us to seek reconciliation whenever we have quarrelled with somebody. He also teaches us a healthy realism, saying there are so many times “we can’t be perfect" but "do what you can do and settle your disagreements.”

    “This (is the) healthy realism of the Catholic Church: the Church never teaches us ‘or this or that.’ That is not Catholic. The Church says to us: ‘this and that.’ ‘Strive for perfectionism: reconcile with your brother. Do not insult him. Love him. And if there is a problem, at the very least settle your differences so that war doesn’t break out.’ This (is) the healthy realism of Catholicism. It is not Catholic (to say) ‘or this or nothing:’ This is not Catholic, this is heretical. Jesus always knows how to accompany us, he gives us the ideal, he accompanies us towards the ideal, He frees us from the chains of the laws' rigidity and tells us: ‘But do that up to the point that you are capable.’ And he understands us very well. He is our Lord and this is what he teaches us.”

    Reconciling amongst ourselves is the tiny sanctity of negotiation

    Pope Francis concluded his homily by reminding how Jesus exhorted us to avoid hypocrisy and do what we can and at the very least avoid disputes amongst ourselves by coming to an agreement.

    “And allow me to use this word that seems a bit strange: it’s the tiny sanctity of negotiations. ‘So, I can’t do everything but I want to do everything, therefore I reach an agreement with you, at least we don’t trade insults, we don’t wage a war and we can all live in peace.’ Jesus is a great person! He frees us from all our miseries and also from that idealism which is not Catholic. Let us implore our Lord to teach us, first to escape from all rigidity but also to go out beyond ourselves, so we can adore and praise God who teaches us to be reconciled amongst ourselves and who also teaches us to reach an agreement up to the point that we are able to do so.”
     
  4. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    Of course, you'll be happy to post Church teaching that proves the serious charge of heresy, and who specifically and individually is guilty, via documentation, of this serious charge of heresy - since the pope conveniently failed to do so in his off-the-cuff (and frankly slanderous) remarks.

    Otherwise one must conclude such charges are simply misleading and false, made to push an erroneous agenda.

    (And, to point out the obvious, calling this thread "dreadful" is just more of the same, ad hominem attack in the place of serious discussion backed up by references to Church teachings.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2016
    gracia, sunburst and Sorrowful Heart like this.
  5. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Matthew 5;18
     
  6. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Jesus was warning here about cafeteria Catholicism, of making it up as you mosey along, Vatican take note
     
    gracia likes this.
  7. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    In light of a MOG member’s (copious!) recent comments, I think it’s time to revisit this subject.
     
    sterph likes this.
  8. Mary's child

    Mary's child Archangels

    Agreed and thank you Brian.
     
    BrianK likes this.
  9. The role of the college of cardinals is to advise the pope.
    If some cardinals think the pope is in error on some serious matter then they are duty bound to bring it to his attention.
    The pope is duty bound to address the cardinals concerns.

    We have such a situation in the church persisting now for over one full calendar year.
    That is not acceptable.

    The other problem is the doubts surrounding the relationship of Pope Benedict to the papacy combined with the doubts surrounding Pope Francises relationship with the papal office.

    You are indeed correct to say that Catholics must be loyal to the papal teaching.

    That can only happen in a situation of crystal clear lines of authority surrounding the chair St Peter.

    Those lines have all been blurred by the controversial alleged resignation of Pope Benedict and the subsequent events all of which have plunged the papacy into its gravest crisis since its foundation.
    Comments about schismatic Catholics will only cut the mustard when the current uncertainty and confusion surrounding the biazzre situation of the papacy are resolved satisfactorily , properly and above all publicly.
     

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