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A Rapidly Emerging Schism

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by BrianK, Nov 16, 2016.

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  1. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member


    A Rapidly Emerging Schism
    Steve Skojec November 15, 2016 0 Comments
    All the attempts that have been made to address the severe problems posed by the synods on marriage and the family and the post-synodal apostolic exhortation have been completely ignored by Rome.

    But with the advent of the “Four Cardinals Letter” and Cardinal Burke’s subsequent — and extremely significant — explanatory interview, it seems that the closest allies of Pope Francis are closing ranks and circling the wagons.

    In a series of seemingly unrelated moves, we are seeing strong reactions against the faithful Catholic resistance.

    Fr. Antonio Spadaro — “the pope’s mouthpiece” — tweeted:

    #AmorisLaetitia: The Pope has “clarified”. Those who don’t like what they hear pretend not to hear it! Just read…


    The offending tweet appears now to have been deleted. In its place were two others. This:

    #AmorisLaetitia is an act of the Magisterium (card. Schönborn) so don't keep asking the same question until you get the answer *you* want...

    — Antonio Spadaro (@antoniospadaro) 8:10 AM - 15 Nov 2016 · Rome, Lazio
    And this:

    «Amoris Laetitia es obviamente un acto de magisterio». Mi conversación con el… http://www.cyberteologia.it/2016/11/amoris-laetitia-es-obviamente-un-acto-de-magisterio-mi-conversacion-con-el-cardenal-schonborn/ …

    — Antonio Spadaro (@antoniospadaro) 9:00 AM - 15 Nov 2016

    The second tweet links to a partial transcript of Fr. Spadaro’s “conversation” with Cardinal Christoph Schönborn about Amoris Laetitia, in which the Viennese cardinal — tasked by Pope Francis with the official interpretation of AL — famously said, “It is obvious that this is an act of the magisterium: it is an Apostolic Exhortation.”

    The thin-skinned Fr. Spadaro has since blocked me for my own response to him:

    You oppose Christ. And so, however much power you may have at the moment, you will fail. You cannot win. https://twitter.com/antoniospadaro/status/798513417694785537 …

    — Steve Skojec (@SteveSkojec) 1:42 PM - 15 Nov 2016

    I’m afraid in this matter, I’m unable to be a journalist. I’m a partisan.

    Elsewhere, Cardinal-elect Cupich of Chicago, when asked about bishops distancing themselves from Francis and his vision for the Church, responded:

    Surely, there are some who are struggling with the vision offered by the pope, and, yes, sadly, there are some who are opposed to him and do not like him, as Cardinal Wuerl said. I use the word sadly, not in terms of it being sad for the pope, but for those who oppose him or working against him because in reality they lack an understanding of what it means to be a bishop in the Catholic Church.

    At Rorate Caeli, we are treated to a partial translation of a blog post by Vaticanista Sandro Magister, who has uncovered an Orwellian attempt to monitor Catholic professors who do not toe the line on Amoris Laetitia:

    Sandro Magister reveals it today in his personal blog, and calls it a “Sodalitium Franciscanum“, in reference to the “Sodalitium Pianum” (SP) St. Pius X supposedly established as an underground network to find Modernists infiltrated in the Church. The main difference, of course, is that the supposed “SP” tried to do a good thing (that is, avoid the spread of errors and novelties that attempted against the Faith and Morals the Church has always professed), while the Pope’s new Banana-Gestapo (like the actual Gestapo or the KGB) tries to do a bad thing: expel from Catholic institutions those who simply want to teach Catholic Faith and Morals as the Church has always taught them — and warns all that they are being monitored secretly in their classrooms in order to toe the new pro-adultery and pro-cohabitation line.

    Magister transcribes the letter received by faculty in the Pontifical Institute John Paul II for Studies on Marriage and the Family (linked to the Lateran University). The threats contained in it are not hollow, because Francis himself intervened earlier this year to completely subject the board of the Institute to HIS new view of marriage (as opposed to Jesus Christ’s and John Paul II’s), putting strong henchmen in their place. Men who would not mind following orders, even if absurd.

    And in Germany, Cardinal Lehman — a long time dissenter from Catholic teaching and vocal proponent of Pope Francis — says that now is the time to accomplish the agenda he favors — because Francis will allow it:

    Liberal-minded Cardinal Karl Lehmann is urging his fellow German bishops to change Church discipline quickly while Francis is still Pope.

    In an interview with German website katholisch.de, he pressed the bishops to use the “freedom that has been granted by the Pope.”

    “Francis wants us to explore new paths. Sometimes you don’t have to wait until the large tanker begins to move,” he added, alluding to the alleged slowness of the Curia in making changes, an attack often uttered by German liberal churchmen.

    The remark was geared toward the discussion of the possibility for admitting divorced and civilly remarried Catholics to Communion.


    Lehmann strongly opposes Humanae Vitae and is one of the signatories of the “Königsteiner Erklärung.” He has continuously supported the promotion of admitting “remarried” divorced Catholics to the Eucharist, according to his own account. He also supports the German bishops’ refusal to accept St. John Paul’s admonishment of the “Beratungsscheine,” counseling certificates that allow women in Germany to undergo legal abortion.

    In this most recent interview with katholisches.de, Lehmann also supported abolishing celibacy for clergy on the basis of an alleged lack of priests. “What actually hinders us from ordaining married permanent deacons, who do a great service to the Church, so that they may also take on priestly services?”

    I’ve already written that the schism is here, just not fully developed yet. These movements both for and against Christ’s teaching within the highest echelons of Church power are indicative that the pace of the split in the Church is accelerating.

    If you haven’t started praying that God rescue and reform His Church — and for the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart — now is a good time to start.
    Byron, lynnfiat, little me and 2 others like this.
  2. Timothius722

    Timothius722 Archangels

    I stand with Pope Francis...there is a method to his madness so to speak...remain calm...relax...take a lude dudes and dudettes...trust that Gods will be done. It will not end well for those who have the "spirit of rebellion". Watch God work His magic so to speak...enjoy the ride.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
    Sanctus, Jeanne and fallen saint like this.
  3. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    BREAKING: Cardinal Burke says if Pope won’t clarify ‘serious error’, Cardinals must make ‘formal act of correction’

    ROME, November 15, 2016 (LifeSiteNews) – After joining a group of four cardinals in releasing a call for Pope Francis to clarify grave errors in his apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia, Cardinal Raymond Burke has now indicated the cardinals are contemplating a “formal correction” should the pope fail to address their concerns.

    The cardinals had written to the pope with their concerns on September 19, but after failing to receive a response for nearly two months, they released the letter publicly on Monday morning.

    Now, in an interview with the National Catholic Register’s Ed Pentin, Burke discusses the next steps should the pope fail to address the cardinals’ concerns. Here is Pentin’s question and the cardinal’s response:

    What happens if the Holy Father does not respond to your act of justice and charity and fails to give the clarification of the Church’s teaching that you hope to achieve?

    Then we would have to address that situation. There is, in the Tradition of the Church, the practice of correction of the Roman Pontiff. It is something that is clearly quite rare. But if there is no response to these questions, then I would say that it would be a question of taking a formal act of correction of a serious error.

    Burke goes on to insist that in a case of conflict between the pope and Church Tradition, the Tradition is binding. “Ecclesial authority exists only in service of the Tradition,” Burke explains. “I think of that passage of St. Paul in the [Letter to the] Galatians (1:8), that if ‘even an angel should preach unto you any Gospel other than that which we preached unto you, let him be anathema.’”

    IMPORTANT: To respectfully express your support for the cardinals' letter, sign the petition to Pope Francis. Click here.

    Historically, in the rare cases where popes have taught heresy, Burke explains, “It is the duty…, and historically it has happened, of cardinals and bishops to make clear that the Pope is teaching error and to ask him to correct it.”

    The September 19 letter, signed by Cardinals Walter Brandmüller, Raymond Burke, Carlo Caffarra, and Joachim Meisner, asked the pope 5 short questions which call for ‘yes or no’ answers that would immediately clarify the meaning of the confusion-plagued document on precisely those points where theologians, priests and even bishops have offered contradicting interpretations.

    In the interview, Burke emphasizes that the cardinals have sought to act for “the good of the Church,” which, he says, “is suffering from a tremendous confusion” on the points they have raised especially. He notes, for example, that priests in different dioceses are being given contradictory directions on how to handle the question of access to Communion for those in adulterous unions.

    “We, as cardinals, judged it our responsibility to request a clarification with regard to these questions, in order to put an end to this spread of confusion that is actually leading people into error,” he says.

    “For us to remain silent about these fundamental doubts, which have arisen as a result of the text of Amoris Laetitia, would, on our part, be a grave lack of charity toward the Pope and a grave lack in fulfilling the duties of our own office in the Church,” he adds.

  4. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    Mary's child and Sunnyveil like this.
  5. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    It's too long to post here from my phone but this is worth taking the time to read in full:


    Cardinal Burke’s Groundbreaking Interview Signals Official Papal Resistance
    [​IMG] Steve Skojec November 15, 2016 One Comment
    Cardinal Raymond Burke, one of the signatories of the so-called “Four Cardinals Letter,” gave an interview to Catholic Action in which he explained the reasons behind the letter and why it was time to take the step of releasing it to the public. I believe this interview is a major step in the direction of an official ecclesiastical action to oppose the errors of Pope Francis...
    little me likes this.
  6. picadillo

    picadillo Powers

    This pope is reminding me more and more of President Obama. Only God can save us from this madness.
    Byron and little me like this.
  7. Timothius722

    Timothius722 Archangels

    Ah my good man...denial ? I ask you in good spirit...what in this crazy day do you presume to know the heart and thoughts of a good man. I tell you..it is certain that it is a whisp. Will you go out to your car in the morning and will it start...and if it does start...it is sure if you keep it long enough...one day it will not. Poor ole Francis...he is old...eighty one I think...he's in a rush...he doesn't have much time. Why do you suppose God elected just such a man? Hang out long enough and find out.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
  8. Sunnyveil

    Sunnyveil New Member

    This approach is like that of the Democrats when asked about the details of Obamacare. They said that if you wanted to know about the plan, you first had to pass it into law to find out. Questioning was a no, no. You just had to experience it to find about it. We certainly know it now.

    And, Tim, God didn't elect the pope, the cardinals did. Whether they all acted in good conscience is know to God alone.
    Clare A, BrianK, little me and 2 others like this.
  9. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    It was Cardinal Danneels who made clear who elected Bergoglio.
    BrianK, little me and SgCatholic like this.
  10. SgCatholic

    SgCatholic Maranatha

    Petition signed.
    As Cardinal Burke pointed out in the recent interview:
    Matthew 18:15-17
    15 “If another member of the church sins against you,go and point out the fault when the two of you are alone. If the member listens to you, you have regained that one. 16 But if you are not listened to, take one or two others along with you, so that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If the member refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if the offender refuses to listen even to the church, let such a one be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
    BrianK and little me like this.
  11. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Ah, a new day and Brian is back trying to push the dramatic 'news' that there is a "Rapidly Emerging Schism"

    But there is nothing new here. The great anti- Pope Francis websites - OnePeterFive and LifeSiteNews, are doing their best to 'milk' the good Cardinal Burke's interview and involvement with the infamous 4 Cardinal letter to the Pope. But of course the letter comes from back in September and the 'rebels' who are supposed to be leading this schism are still just four in number and the Church carries on unperturbed.

    I have no problem with Cardinal Burke and I don't think Pope Francis does either but those two websites along with the people who promote them are definitely causing a lot of harm in the Church. But the Church will survive this particular little difficulty as it has survived far more significant ones in its 2000 year history.

  12. garabandal

    garabandal Powers

    No crisis in the Church David.

    You made me laugh out loud.

    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
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  13. davidtlig

    davidtlig Powers

    Well, garabandal, I was, of course, meaning unaffected by the little difficulty produced by the four Cardinals.

    As you seem to think I am ignoring the problems in the Church, may I remind you I am a great believer in the True Life in God messages from Vassula. Here is an early message (from 1988) which shows the true seriousness of the situation with the Church:

    Your Apostasy Betrayed My Church
    August 16, 1988


    I am, never doubt, it is I, Jesus Christ; I have called you from My Cross, I have called you in My Agony to show you how I, Who am the Head of My Church, is to be found today; the Image of Myself lying Dead in My Mother's Arms1 is a symbolic way of showing you all how your apostasy betrayed My Church;

    you see, daughter I led you to see the correct image of the present Church; you have seen on My Mother Her sorrow and you saw in Her Arms My Dead Body, betrayed, bruised, scourged, pierced and crucified, and this is exactly how My Church of today is to be found; My Mother weeps over Her with Tears of Blood, as She wept over My Body on Golgotha, but in a very short time She2 will be renewed, transfigured and resurrected as I, the Lord, was Resurrected; She will no longer lie in this deplorable state; My enemies had destroyed My Temple, but with My Power descending from Above and with My Grace, I, the Lord, rebuilt My Temple in just three days;

    I promise you that My Church will revive and I will have Her renewed and transfigured as I was Transfigured; I will rebuild My Temple and Integrity will be Her loincloth round Her waist, and Faithfulness the belt about Her hips; 3 and Purity will be Her Torch, to lead all those who defiled My Name, in Her Light and purify them; for I, the Lord of Lords, the Lamb, will be living in Her and She will be received by Her own, as I was received by My own after My Resurrection; then, like a mother who comforts her child, I too will comfort you even more; I will enfold My Arms around you with so much love;

    ah, beloved children, I am preparing you a New Heaven and a New Earth to live in, an Earth replenished by fruits that come from the Tree of Life; Its fruits will bear the names of Peace, Holiness, and Love since Its Root4 is Love; you will then face Me, your God, filled by My Holy Spirit as in the first Pentecost; My Spirit will fill you with Love...My Garden I will embellish; I will irrigate My flower-beds; My Dew of Righteousness will descend upon you, beloved ones, and My Light will strengthen your stems, making discipline shine out;

    courage, daughter; courage, beloved ones; I know it is hard to live in wilderness, but the End of these Times5are soon with you; soon I will descend to purify you; I, the Lord, solemnly tell you, that I will seize you by surprise, inducing My Light upon you; My Heavens will shake the earth and all those who love Me will glorify Me, bending their knee, and many will remember Me and return to Me; this will be known as the Great Conversion of the Church;

    but, to My great sorrow, there will be those stubborn souls who blasphemed My Holy Name and who battle on My adversary's side; these souls will reject Me even more; when this happens, Satan will wipe them away, pulling them with him into the Eternal Fire;

    Vassula, feel My Sacred Heart ... I suffer beyond human words to have to tell you this, for I Am a God of Love, a God of Mercy, but I am also a God of Justice and I have to be your Judge when My creation rebels against Me; My Soul is wounded and My Blood is gushing out in Rivers; I love you all! but you have wounded Me; I am your Holy One, but you pierced Me; I am your Saviour who today cries from My Cross to you: come back to Me! return to Me! come and be holy as I Am Holy!

    1 The statue of St. Mary and Jesus after the Crucifixion in San Sylvestro, Rome.
    2 The Church.3 Is. 11:5.​
    4 The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the Root of David - This understanding was given to me later on, on September 1, 1988.
    5 Times of Apostasy.
    lynnfiat likes this.
  14. padraig

    padraig New Member

    We will maybe keep the forum open but give internal Church matters a rest till after Christmas. :)

    I think actually events are fast moving beyond us and the Cardinals and Bishops will be doing a lot of talking themselves. So I am going to freeze threads on internal Church matters. We can get back to this after Christmas.

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  15. padraig

    padraig New Member


    Just a blast from the past.
  16. padraig

    padraig New Member

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  17. BrianK

    BrianK Resident Kook, Crank, Curmudgeon - & Mod Staff Member

    Maybe we should reopen this thread in David’s honor.

    Mary's child and Mac like this.
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