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A quote from Pope Francis and some thoughts

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by Mark Dohle, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    In scriptures it says that when we tell others what we believe, it should be done with gentleness, respecting all.
    New International Version
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 1 Peter 3:15.

    The worldly way to deal with others is to be harsh, judgmental and shaming. We all do that. Jesus did not. Even when he spoke strongly to the Pharisees, it was done with the desire to breakthrough, not force them to change their minds. We can't force anyone.

    To accept ones position, is not go along with it. I have friends who are pro-choice, I let them know that abortion is wrong, murder and should not be recieved or performed. Yet I still care for them. I have friends who have different poilitcal and religious positions, yet aftere I share with them, I don't try to force or shame them. We are called to express God's love, not jon in in all the conflict and screaming that is going on today.

    We do not live in a Christian country anymore (if we ever were). We as christians dropped the ball, we are the ones who went along with the slide of our culture into the choas that we now have. Of course I am speaking broadly. We can't change anyone, yet we can plant seeds, either that will bear good fruit or bad. To attack someone who differes, only makes things worse, since it makes the walls go higher.

    Only God can change others, we plant the seed, God waters, we pray, Gods allows the harvest, we are not in control, we are asked to be true to our calling.......part of the calling is to not judge others, becasue we really can't.

    Accepting of all siners does not mean that we go along with what they do. I write prisoners, some are in for murder, they belong there, that does not mean that I don't accept them in their basic humanity, nor there desire to grow closer to God. Most admit their guilt. Besides, I am a sinner, not much different than those in jail.....but for the grace of God.

    We Christians are not much different than anyone else when it comes on how we react to others. We can be just as narrorw, judgemental and hateful with the best of those who attack and judge those who disagree with them. It is counter productive for Christians, for when we do that, we really have noting to offer.......just more infighting, contempt and leading others to become defensive towards the central message of our faith. If all they see is negative, there is no way to communicate our faith in a gentle, respectful manner.

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  2. Blizzard

    Blizzard thy kingdom come

    Mark Dohle and Jeanne like this.
  3. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Good answer,
    I don't agree with it. But I won't hector you on it.

    I would add in my own defense though if I went round this city at the minute even slightly pointing the finger at people , even in a whisper I wouldn't last too long. :D:D:D

    But nice try.
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  4. Jarg

    Jarg Archangels

    I agree with your post in that we should usually strive to answer gently and with respect, but sometimes the gravity of the situation requires harshness - and it isn't worldly. You can certainly speak of a worldly judge mental harshness but there is also a saintly harshness. The same I think is true for gentleness and respect, there is worldy one (a favorite instrument of Satan) and a saintly one. Jesus showed us many times when to be tough ('get behind me Satan!' Or 'You hypocrites!) and so did St Paul ('Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith' - the latín word used bu St Paul is 'dure', which menas 'with harshness' and that is the word used in the Spanish bible version too]. When the Father, Jesus, the Saints, our priests, or our fellow lay people are harsh, it does not mean they are bad, it is for our own good. as St JoseMaria said, sometimes a tough and promptly rebuke is the greatest act of love and mercy. How to answer is indeed a matter of discernment and acting in proportion to the gravity of the situation.
  5. padraig

    padraig New Member

  6. Katfalls

    Katfalls Archangels

    Mark, your quote : "“Communicating means sharing, and sharing demands listening and acceptance." was misleading. It insinuates acceptance of the idea being shared, not acceptance of the person sharing the idea. It is ambiguous and I consider dangerous to speak in riddles. Sounds like something a seasoned politician would say. I would hope the clergy would be teachers and not expect the children to be interpreters. It's a big responsibility. I actually like listening to Bishop Sheen reruns, no doubt on what he was teaching and no room for private interpretation.
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  7. padraig

    padraig New Member

    But I promis
    It is killing me not chiming in, but I promised not. Katfalls is right though, the idea contained is too Universalist and unCatholic.
    It spreads the jam too thinly.
  8. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I will shut up now,

    Sorry. o_O:)
    Mark Dohle likes this.
  9. Katfalls

    Katfalls Archangels

    You are so funny Padraig! You know the Irish can't keep quiet!
    SgCatholic likes this.
  10. padraig

    padraig New Member

    Sure I don't need to write when you can write so well..and true. :)

    Katfalls likes this.
  11. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    Liberals pride themselves on their acceptance of anyone, but in reality they are the most intolerant people you could ever meet. Being tolerant only of people who agree with you is not tolerance, it is the exact opposite. It has always boggled my mind that they can't see this. They must have absolutely no self introspection.
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  12. padraig

    padraig New Member

    We live in time of the very highest deception. The very highest. It is as though we were surrounded by great bands of shinning , wonderful False angels on every side. It is just such a huge , huge testing, there is no doubt about it at all.

    I have myself often reading words and then seem just so wise and learned and wonderful Then I take them away in prayer and suddenly they just crumble in my hands. Just old mouldy dust.

    One good criteria is to test them against Scripture. Someone says something you think sounds heavenly .

    Very well then try them against scripture. Ask the question were is this found in the bible.

    Also test it against the teachings of the Church. Ask yourself what does the Church teach on this?

    Test it if you like against the Fathers of the Church, ask what the Fathers said?

    Test it against the words of the Saints; what did they say.

    But test.

    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
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  13. padraig

    padraig New Member

    I would say if a Catholic Spiritual Father is giving Teaching I would expect as a matter of course that he would build his teaching on Scripture. That is why our homilies are always based on the Word of God as proclaimed that day. Be very wary of a given teaching without it being referred to scripture.

    Ask yourself, 'Why is this not being referenced to Scripture and the teachings of the Church?'

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  14. Mario

    Mario Powers

    I guess that means that with the name, O'Loughlin, I'm free to jump into the fray!:D

    Mark said:

    Accepting of all sinners does not mean that we go along with what they do.

    ...give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 1 Peter 3:15.

    But as Jarg points out, meek-and-humble Jesus was not always gentle:

    Matt 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

    One might say that in the MOG discussions about Pope Francis, we don't have the authority to question or counter in the way Jesus did the authorities. But then, Brian has posted quotes from saints in past centuries saying we need to correct pastors who are misleading the faithful.

    I will follow the example of Cardinal Burke and the other Cardinals that submitted the Dubia. They requested a clarification respectfully. They have serious reservations but have not attacked.

    One example of disrespect that really annoys me, and reveals a certain level of prejudice is when the Holy Father's titles are dismissed and he is called by his surname only- Bergoglio. It appears such a one no longer views him as Pontiff. Raising an alarm over his words and actions, they are unwilling to see any good that he might do. And disrespect can lead to vindictiveness.

    On the other hand, Pope Francis allows his visibility concerning some questionable and divisive actions to continue unabated. A paragraph from a newer thread on the the recently deceased Cardinal Meisner, illustrates this point:

    The whole story of Cardinal Meisner’s life is a story of warmth and courage. I have seldom seen such a unique combination of a warm heart and a strong conviction, which gained respect even among his professed opponents. Even Germany’s most prominent feminist, Alice Schwarzer, recently gave her tribute to Cardinal Meisner upon his death, saying: “Yes, I liked him.” She felt a friendship with him and she cherished “his humanity and child-like Faith” in spite of their differences of opinion, for example, concerning abortion, as Schwarzer wrote. She continued, saying that at their last meeting a year ago, Meisner gave her a little prayer card with a poem of St. Teresa of Avila. The lines “nothing shall frighten you, nothing scare you. Everything shall pass, God alone remains the same” touched Schwarzer especially as being quite “consoling.”

    What! Cardinal Meisner consorted with pro-aborts! Yes! But the context seems to indicate he did so privately and gently, with an intent to evangelize. One might respond that Pope Francis has done similarly with the Italian abortionist, Emma Bonino. Unfortunately, his public and apparent uncritical praise gives the appearance of tacit approval:

    In an interview with Corriere Della Sera Pope Francis praised Italy’s unrepentant leading abortionist and proponent of abortion, Emma Bonino, as one of the nation’s “forgotten greats,” comparing her to great historical figures such as Konrad Adenauer and Robert Schuman.

    It is numerous situations such as this that grieves my heart and tempts me to think all of these miscues are not mistakes. Lord have mercy!

    Safe in the Barque of Peter!
  15. AED

    AED Powers

    you are right Praetorian. They are so convinced of their own rectitude (based on feelings) that they absolutely cannot tolerate a challenge to their carefully constructed house of cards. Some people I love very dearly operate in this sphere. It hurts to see them deceived and so antagonistic to my beliefs. Sigh.
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  16. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    I never said you ever would, you sound like a very decent, loving Christian who takes his faith very seriously.

  17. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    They are human. It is easy to see it in those who oppose us.

  18. Mark Dohle

    Mark Dohle Principalities

    Your points are well taken my friend. Like I said, the popes quote just made me look into my own struggle to simply listen and respond. My failures to do that and to understand others. We do have to stand up for our faith. I doubt Jesus said what he said in strong language from the place that we humans do it. He knew hearts, we do not, he spoke only to heal or to breaktrhough ignorance.

    Jeanne likes this.
  19. Praetorian

    Praetorian Powers

    This has always bothered me as well. I always try to address all clergy from the Pope down to Brothers and Sisters using their title. Using the name "Bergoglio" in reference to the Pope is at best lacking in respect and at worst displaying a personal animosity which we are not supposed to have. Even if someone disagrees with everything a particular prelate says, we should always acknowledge their status as clergy. Most especially if they are in the priesthood. The priesthood is set apart from the rest of us.
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  20. Dolours

    Dolours Powers

    "Child-like faith". I don't know whether she realised it, but that's the greatest compliment anyone could have paid a theologian and prince of the Church. Another good and faithful servant called Home by the Lord.

    According to Vatican Radio, Pope Francis sent this telegram to the current Archbishop of Cologne:

    “With profound emotion I learned that, suddenly and unexpectedly, Cardinal Joachim Meisner was called from this earth by the God of mercy,” the Pope wrote.
    The Pope addressed his telegramme to Cardinal Rainer Woelki, current Archbishop of Cologne.
    He said Cardinal Meisner was “dedicated to the proclamation of the Good News” with “profound faith and sincere love for the Church”.
    “May Christ the Lord reward him for his faithful and intrepid efforts in favour of the good of people of East and West.”
    Pope Francis closed the telegramme by imparting his Apostolic Blessing on all who “commemorate the late Pastor with prayers and sacrifices”.

    Too little, too late. What a pity the Holy Father didn't show some more respect for that "profound faith and sincere love for the Church" by having the manners to respond to the Cardinal's doubts about Amoris Laetitia. Cardinal Meisner surely merited treatment at least equal to that afforded Emma Bonino and Leonardo diCaprio.

    He could show some respect for the Cardinal's memory by issuing a response to the dubia.
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