I would say that you are incorrect in assuming that Fatima.org is somehow more of an authority on Fatima than the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which has confirmed officially that the 1984 Consecration was done properly. Regarding Fatima.org and Father Gruner, I think Howard Kainz summed up my feelings on the matter nicely when he wrote: "Catholics often criticize Protestants for their subjective 'private interpretations' of the Scriptures that give short shrift to tradition. Some Catholics, however, are guilty of the very same thing when it comes to private revelations — messages reportedly given by Jesus or Mary to some individual or group of individuals. The 1917 revelations given by the Blessed Virgin Mary to three shepherd children in Fatima, Portugal, during World War I, at the outset of the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, constituted possibly the most portentous wake-up call the Church has ever received. But the interpretation of the three 'secrets' our Lady entrusted to the children have been subjected to the vagaries of private interpretation by Catholics who give short shrift to the Magisterium of the Church. The most egregious example of this phenomenon comes from a Canadian priest, Fr. Nicholas Gruner, the so-called Fatima priest, and the Fatima Center he founded. Fr. Gruner was ordained by the bishop of Avellino, Italy, in 1976, and transferred to Canada, but was suspended after refusing to return to his home diocese. The Vatican’s Congregation for the Clergy confirmed his suspension a divinis (the loss of faculties for celebrating Mass, hearing confessions, etc.) in 2001. The archbishop of Hyderabad, India, however, disagreed with the suspension and incardinated Gruner there — giving rise to confusion about Gruner’s ecclesiastical status, and claims by his supporters that his suspension was invalid. For many years Fr. Gruner has been insisting that the request our Lady made at Fatima for the consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart by the pope in concert with the bishops of the world has not been made in the way the Virgin requested. His sticking point is that the consecration of Russia has not been made by name. In December 1983, after consulting with Sr. Lucia, the only living Fatima visionary, Pope John Paul II sent out letters inviting all the world’s Catholic bishops, and some Orthodox bishops, to join him in a joint act of consecration, scheduled for the feast of the Annunciation, March 25, 1984. In the consecration, the Pope, accompanied not only in spirit by the bishops to whom he sent the letters, but also physically in St. Peter’s Basilica by numerous bishops and cardinals, consecrated the whole world to Mary’s Immaculate Heart. Reportedly fearing retaliation from the Soviet Union, which at the time was threatening to crush the Solidarity movement in Poland, the Pope added a diplomatic but pointed consecration of Russia herself: 'In a special way we entrust and consecrate to you those individuals and nations that particularly need to be thus entrusted and consecrated.' Asked a number of times whether this consecration fulfilled our Lady’s request, Sr. Lucia wrote, 'Publicly, in union with those bishops who wished to associate themselves with His Holiness, he made the consecration in the way in which the Blessed Virgin had wished that it should be made. Afterward people asked me if it was made in the way our Lady wanted, and I replied: "Yes. From that time, it is made!"' In November 2001 John Paul II, Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, and several others met with Sr. Lucia and asked her about the dissatisfaction expressed by Gruner and others over the lack of explicit mention of Russia, and their continuing requests to 're-do' the consecration. Sr. Lucia mentioned that her community simply threw such petitions away, adding, 'I’ve already said that the consecration our Lady wished for was performed in 1984, and that it was accepted by Heaven.' ...would it not be more appropriate for followers of Mary to demonstrate the filial obedience required of Catholics by trusting the Popes, ceasing with the distracting accusations of Church-wide cover-ups and a faulty consecration, and focusing on the simple yet major request made by our Lady at Fatima: that Catholics say the rosary often, and at least one time in their lives go to confession and receive Holy Communion on five successive first Saturdays of the month, in reparation for sin? This was the central message of the Fatima revelations, a message that risks being lost amid the Fatimists’ agitation for the re-consecration of Russia and their fascination with third- and fourth-secret conspiracy theories. Something even more miraculous than the tearing down of the Berlin Wall might result if this request were widely heeded."
Richard67, where is the evidence 30 years later that the consecration has been done? Outside of one 'very shady' Cardinal (although a top office in the Vatican at the time) who made this declaration that the consecratoin had been done correctly? I am sticking with our Lords message to Verne Dagenais on this one when he said, "even a blind man can see the consecration has not taken place", even though the 1985 consecration 'to the world' bought us some time/delay.
US Air Force Dumps “So help me God”, Russian Air Force Gives Jet Fighter to Head of Orthodox Church as “Gift” http://mysticpost.com/2014/09/19/us-air-force-dumps-so-help-me-god-russian-air-force-gives-jet-fighter-to-head-of-orthodox-church-as-gift/ Included in article are some amazing words from Malachi martin
Malachi Martin: Russia’s role in the Vision of Fatima is very important because if we’re to believe the Vision of Fatima, salvation for the world, the cure for the world ills, will start in the Ukraine and in Russia, and that was why the Virgin in the Fatima vision of 1917 was supposed to have spoken actively about Russia and that Russia first of all has to be cured of her errors and then she will help the entire world to get better and to cure itself of its sins. It’s a very bizarre message in that sense because one would have said that salvation was going to come from the West as we always think because we are Westerners, but no, according to the message of Fatima, salvation will come from the East, and particularly, from Ukraine and from the State of Russia itself, which is extraordinary.
Pic...please show me in the Fatima messags where it say's that peace will come from "east, Ukraine and Russia itself"? This is not a Fatima prophecy.
To Fatima and Pic, I think the conversion of Russia which will happen in a' Marvelous way' will help the conversion of the West and the whole World. But who cares ? however it comes about matters not.This is not for us,[of course we can speculate] we have only to make the reparation and fulfill the 5 Saturdays , [a measuring stick for all self claimed mystics around here] BTW, I do enjoy your debates and think you are 2 of the most sincere Catholics I could have ever come across .
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/719895/replies?c=5 Here is an interview with Malachi Martin regarding Fatima - it's pretty long, but very interesting, and a little bit scary, I think. April 18, 1996 Interview Part II of II Malachi Martin: There is a place in Portugal called Fatima, after the eldest daughter of Mohammed, who converted, at least the person who carried her name was a Moorish princess who converted, and she was called Fatima, and the town is called Fatima. There in 1917 three children claimed that the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to them and gave them special messages for Catholics and for the Pope and the messages were very, very dire and were very chastising. They threatened the world with great punishment if the world didn't stop committing sin. There were three secrets mainly, and there was a third secret which hasn't been revealed yet, and the Pope in Rome has the third secret written down on a sheet of paper in a box on a mantelpiece in his private apartments and it has not been revealed. Fatima has become very important because the Virgin apparently made promises that affect the well-being of the Papacy and of the Catholic Church. John Paul II used to be very devoted to Fatima and he had a great devotion to Our Lady of Fatima as they speak about the Virgin who appeared there. He started off very devoted to Our Lady, very devoted to Fatima and to propagating the message of Fatima which was repent from sin and convert to God. Of late he has swung away from Fatima. He is not very much in favor of Fatima. He still believes it happened but he believes that it is not of great importance, and he has given permission for Vatican officials to more or less limit Fatima and limit devotions at Fatima to the Virgin, which has displeased a lot of people. So John Paul II has changed in this regard, because Fatima is a very apocalyptic message. It says that no matter what happens there are going to be terrible wars, there are going to be diseases, whole nations are going to be wiped out, there are going to be 3 days darkness, there are going to be epidemics that will wipe out whole nations overnight, parts of the earth will be washed away at sea and violent tornadoes and storms. It's not a nice message at all, and John Paul II is not inclined to think like that, so he has dropped emphasis on Fatima's message, and that fits in with his Globalist outlook, because his outlook is that man has been blessed and man is going to succeed and man must be helped to build his human habitat. It's an entirely different philosophy and outlook from what Catholicism used to be. Interviewer: What's Russia's role in the Vision of Fatima? Malachi Martin: Russia's role in the Vision of Fatima is very important because if we're to believe the Vision of Fatima, salvation for the world, the cure for the world ills, will start in the Ukraine and in Russia, and that was why the Virgin in the Fatima vision of 1917 was supposed to have spoken actively about Russia and that Russia first of all has to be cured of her errors and then she will help the entire world to get better and to cure itself of its sins. It's a very bizarre message in that sense because one would have said that salvation was going to come from the West as we always think because we are Westerners, but no, according to the message of Fatima, salvation will come from the East, and particularly, from Ukraine and from the State of Russia itself, which is extraordinary. Interviewer: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/719895/replies?c=5 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/719895/replies?c=5
If Russia was consecrated properly ,why are they always the agressor ? Besides the advance on the Ukraine , now they test the waters of US airspace. http://news.yahoo.com/us-canadian-jets-intercept-8-russian-aircraft-232846452.html
He started off very devoted to Our Lady, very devoted to Fatima and to propagating the message of Fatima which was repent from sin and convert to God. Of late he has swung away from Fatima. He is not very much in favor of Fatima. He still believes it happened but he believes that it is not of great importance This is another one of those instances where I think Fr. Martin talks to hear himself talk.....as if somehow his opinions about all things are anointed. In fact this projected attitude on Pope JPII appears to have happened in just an opposite manner. It wasn't until he was shot that he experienced the need to study everything about the Fatima messages. He asked at that time for everything to be brought to him about the Fatima history. After all he gave the credit to Our Lady of Fatima for directly saving his life. If this very experience had not happened to him perhaps he would not have been moved to even do the form of the Consecration that he did. He felt that it was important to do something with regard to Fatima even though being restrained by the current situation that bound the Vatican to an agreement with the Soviets at the time not to publicly criticize them in order to avoid greater bad treatment of Catholics in their governed territories. That's an awful big load to carry when decision making and his advisors reminded him of this....and of course there was the necessary re-education about this Private Revelation to all the bishops of the world for even the beginning of their own understanding. Back then Russia was a part of the greater Soviet Union and really not looked upon singly by the world. So still waiting....at a time now when "Russia" by name is seen to be a big time aggressor on the world scene, already trying to swallow up a separate sovereign nation.
Having looked both at this article and the '8 prophecies' regarding Russia on the same website, I would just say that great care is needed before trying to apply any of this to current international events in any simplistic fashion. On one hand, to take all the sheer number of prophecies predicting religious revival both in and from Russia is wholly reasonable. On the other, it cannot be inferred from any of them that it is the current régime in the Kremlin is bringing this about. The premature correlation of prophecy to current events (a sobering example of this would be mapping prophecies of apostasy within the Church hierarchy to Pope Francis, or Benedict XVI before him), ignoring the fact that a precise timeframe is not specified and can only be derived by speculation, is one of the easiest interpretive mistakes to make when reading material of this type. I am fairly sure that I speak for many of us in saying that the gift of the fighter jet to the Patriarch merely confirms what has been evident for centuries, namely that Russian Orthodoxy remains plagued by a tendency towards theocratic imperialism (this is inherent to the view of Moscow as the 'Third Rome', and underlies the Moscow Patriarchate's historical tension with Constantinople) and that the relationship between the Church and secular power remains highly ambiguous. History teaches us that public displays of religiosity by political leaders cannot be taken at face value: for an object-lesson in this, read Eberhard Bethge's authoritative biography of Dietrich Bonhoeffer which gives a blow-by-blow account of how the Third Reich instrumentalized the German Reichskirche in the 1930s for its own ends, to stunning effect. They were able to do this because political messianism had been in existence in Germany for many generations (even the great composer Johannes Brahms once composed a bombastic 'Triumphlied' conflating the coronation of the Kaiser with the appearance of Christ in Revelation 19). On the level of human psychology, the same kind of long-range political messianism, albeit with a different theological underpinning, is undoubtedly present in Russia. For all the great contributions of Russian Orthodox spirituality to the Body of Christ, until its imperialistic theological leanings are dealt with, Russia sadly cannot yet be considered converted for the plain reason that this politico-theological vision is a travesty of the Gospel.
Too good not to like! There is also currently a small stumbling block of the main man having been a trusted COL in the KGB. Those who have the experience to really know what that history means understand.
And a P.S. to my reply! It would seem then that actually it was the West and its believers that Mary came to start the ball rolling with regard to any attempt to diminish or even disallow forthcoming atrocities of Communism via this "Russia". So much of this ultimate conversion of the world abuser was placed on the shoulders of her believing children elsewhere. They should get the credit for the future peace for just how would Russia be "cured of her errors in order to help the entire world to also get cured" otherwise as reasoned by Fr. Martin? And, watching the world grand plan play out as it does today with the important Russian involvement in the Muslim world, it is also interesting that "Russia" and a symbol of the Muslim world, "Fatima", are linked together in this small hamlet of such a great mystical happening in our history.
Fatima, I only reposted this because Fr Martin was lucky enough to read the secret of Fatima so I defer to him.
If you watched the video about propaganda that was posted you would see the arguments that it is the west, in fact, that has been aggressive and encroaching upon Russia, which I believe to be true as explained in this video by Nigel Farage of England: This is BRIILIANT!
If that had been the case then, after the break up of the Soviet Union we could have taken advantage of Russia and really "encroached" upon them back then. Just the opposite.....we only wanted those places under the paw of the Russian bear, who dearly wanted their freedom, to be our allies in order to keep the world from more such decimation of governments and economies and individual human freedom. And to say that we have been moving in during present times is almost....well, sorry....but laughable. We won't even give defensive arms to the freedom loving independent Ukrainians (much less to the other surrounding targets like Poland and the Czechs). We just had the Ukrainian President come before Congress the other day, literally begging for that kind of help only to be dismissed. Ukrainian president visits U.S. Congress to ask for help against Russia Petro Poroshenko urged Congress ‘not to let Ukraine stand alone in the face of this aggression’ from Moscow. WASHINGTON — During an emotional visit to Washington, Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko pleaded Thursday for American weapons to help repel Russia’s invasion. President Obama pledged $46 million in security assistance, but stopped short of filling Poroshenko’s request for lethal aid. "I urge you not to let Ukraine stand alone," Poroshenko told a joint session of Congress. "It is very simple: democracies must support each other." "Blankets and night vision goggles are important, but one cannot win a war with a blanket." http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ukrainian-president-visits-u-s-congress-article-1.1944290
Let me explain the lack of enthusiasm for Mr Farage's speech which, I agree with picadillo, is spot on. In the video, Farage is speaking to the EU parliament. But Farage is the leader of a party which believes the EU is a disaster and that the UK should get out of it. The UK people are pretty negative about the EU and consequently Farage is becoming increasingly popular in the UK. I believe he is rather in advance of UK public opinion on the Ukraine matter due to the false presentation of the issues on mainstream media but I think that increasingly people will begin to realise that Farage is speaking the truth with regard to Russia and the Ukraine conflict.
Basically what this politician, Farage, is saying (as many independents do) is stay out of everything and pay no attention to the aspirations of a people who wish to join with the West due to their lived experiences under Russian Communist domination. What a coward. He's handing Putin just what he wants from an already weakened EU. The guy might as well be on the Putin payroll. Rather, when the Ukrainians were feeling the signs of the times and showed their need to belong to a larger power of the West in order to get backing, their Russian puppet President denied them this opportunity. He showed his own pro-Russian stance and motives. Thus, they freely rebelled against him and then Putin reacted....only it gave him a reason to react more forcefully and quicker than he had planned. This guy, Farage, like so many anti-West promoters do, then tried to blame the EU for being responsible for Putin's own pre-planned thuggery. I suppose we'd just be thrilled to death here if we had a Commie neighbor country take advantage of extreme leftists who lived mainly in a few of our bordering states and who were willing to assist this neighbor to take over the country and permitted it to invade our country by first conquering their leftist leaning border states. If our President/his regime assisted the takeover by denying the Constitutionally freedom loving states the ability to defend themselves there would be our own similar revolution towards these "leaders". And just try and blame it on our refusal to just sit back and let the takeover happen in order to prevent the further battles from happening. If you study history, you'll see how the Ukrainians were literally starved to death and forced to work for and give even the food that could keep them alive over to such a "communal" state.
