OK that's interesting...can you provide a source reference to one of these contrary notable, witnessed incidents re Pope Francis that you believe is comparable to this incident? Thanks.
Well, for one....after the "gone viral" pictures of Francis agreeing to "selfies" with his young enthusiasts: Pope urges Young People not to Waste Time On Internet and Smartphones Pope Francis on Tuesday urged 50,000 German altar servers not to waste time on the Internet, smartphones and television, but to spend their time on more productive activities. If he disagrees he doesn't allow assumptions by the public to rest unqualified and that pertains to a whole generation of future Church in this case. If he wants to correct assumptions about himself and what he thinks about a topic he simply does so. He could have done the same qualifying for these young enthusiasts from Medj but did not then nor afterwards when that too went viral in certain enthusiastic groups. As far as Popes simply being dutiful to their "apostolic" position only there are incidents of soberly received books from Vassula, as well as a poem presented from the visionary of Emmitsburg. One cannot assume by such lack of emotional response such an opinion positive or negative. Perhaps just not the time in those cases nor as complete an understanding of their stories. And this Pope has also qualified many false stories about his own permitted interviews and the assumptions made in connection to them. And he qualified his blessing of the assumed possessed young man as not an "exorcism" despite the witnessed effects. Pope urges young people not to waste time on Internet and smartphones Pope urges young people not to waste time on Internet and smartphones Pope urges young people not to waste time on Internet and smartphones
Please excuse the "shouting" print in previous comment......it did not show anything pasted when the several attempts to show headline were made....and the headline was NOT of that enormously sized print!! :^(
ETA I don't really understand why this is relevant let alone comparable to Pope Francis being gifted a statue of Mary from Medj that he kissed . 1. I don't believe the Pope above said that selfie's are a waste of time. (He said spending too much time on smartphones is no good. So too with alcohol for that matter, that doesn't mean priests shouldn't drink any wine). 2. Even if he did believe all selfie's are a waste of time he appears capable of a diplomatic compassion that would have him do the opposite of his own personal preferences/beliefs on matters which good people may validly differ. 3. His personal views on selfies is hardly comparable to a Petrine decision on whether Mary or the deceiver is appearing to the Medj. Seers. 4. We have no reason to believe the Pope feels the need to correct each and every misconstruction of his actions/views...and that if he doesn't then his original action/view has to be what it seems to be. 5. I really cannot see how kissing a statue of Our Lady brought from a rep of Medj can in anyway be construed as anything more than respect for Mary and the good-faith of the bearer. What is the source for your quote above?
No surprise there. With your obvious built in bias I doubted if you had it in your make up to understand anything offered for greater understanding that even you yourself requested. Why bother!! You personally may have no reason to believe the Pope feels a need to correct wrong assumptions about his views but nevertheless he has done so....and reportedly so.....and often. Actions speak louder than words which he has proven, but nonetheless, he has also corrected misconstrued words. In fact, that is one of the criticisms about his many open interviews. Or have you also missed the many reports about that as well?! His views on whatever is of importance to whatever audience he has are apparently important to him to be received in truth....beyond your personal review of what should be rated above another. You give private revelation much greater importance than the Pope himself....esp. re: ongoing messages which he has generally warned against seeking only out of curiosity or argument. So, in the end, he does what he does and isn't subject to your personal analysis of what should be construed only as "diplomatic compassion" which by his insistence wouldn't even be in his lexicon of simple truthful actions and discussions anyway. Re: sources for above quote....do you really live in a cave or something? Everything I've mentioned is not some mysterious hidden discovery....it's all been highly reported, in fact, practically jumped on by the reactive MSM beyond the Catholic reportage. So, to offer some education for your obvious lack of awareness, you would then benefit knowing that such info/quote is from, Reuters, NBC, legitreviews.com, lockerdome.com, sometechnews.com, twitter.com/NBCNightlyNews, investmentwatchblog.com, www.reddit.com, arabspring-news.com to name just a few that have informed the entire world, even if not caught by the few remaining purposefully clueless. Of course I doubt that even more would satisfy your now highly invested and recognized bias.
The fruits: I know a lot of Anglican and Protestant priests, ministers, that were in Medjugorje. I know of a Presbyterian bishop that I have met from Washington. He had sent a multitude of his priests to Medjugorje as well. When I was in Washington a few years ago, I visited him because he visited me and came to Medjugorje. He had a problem, a cross, that was inflicted upon him. His son was shot in Vietnam and became paralyzed. When his son returned from the war, he said to his wife, "Let us make a pilgrimage to Medjugorje. I believe Our Lady will hear us." And Our Lady gave a miracle. The son was healed and converted the parents. The bishop desired that all of his priests come to know Our Lady. Eight of those priests to date have become Catholic priests, without any shouts, without publication, without media. Our Lady works in miraculous ways. She was always the sign, the sign of a better world, the sign of peace and unity in the Church, the sign of our salvation. http://ingodscompany2.blogspot.com/2014/09/fr-jozo-zovko-speaks-on-holy-eucharist.html
As long as the visions continue... the Holy Father cannot make a decision on Medjugorje. Once, the visionaries say their mission is completed (10 secrets) then the Pope will investigate and have final word. The Pope might accept a cathedral dedicated to Our lady at location. But he cannot state visions are true or false until it has come to a close. If Papa Francis did say Medjugorje visions of the Virgin Mary are true. Many people would support medjugorie more then the Catholic Church. Everything our Loving Mother would state would become dogma of faith to medjugorie diciples. Lets allow time to tell... what good fruit came from these visions. There is no rush in Gods time. May Gods Will be Done
Isn't it remarkable that more than 30 million people have traveled to Medjugorje since June 1981? People come year in and year out whether during the dangerous Balkan war years and since and they just keep traveling there. Surely the Holy Spirit is at work in His promptings for His spouse, the Virgin Mary's endeavor as Queen of Peace. Spiritual healings, physical healings, stirrings of calls to priesthood and consecrated life and feelings of blessed peace are some of the fruits. If you had an extra $3000, would you travel to Medjugorje just for the scenery? Just considering the very basic fact that so many millions of people have prayed there alone tells me the Spirit is at work. If a skeptic could tell me very precisely how the visionaries have not been obedient, I would be grateful. Whenever the Bishop asked that the visionaries not use Church grounds for apparitions, they have instantly complied. One of them always and without fail urges prayer for all priests. She has stressed over and over not to criticize clergy. She has stated that the priests are the bridge to the triumph of the Immaculate Heart.
ETA if your devotion to an apparition issues forth in the sort of sarcastic "fruit" that you just splattered onto this page ... then I suggest there's something not quite right with your devotion. Yes I have an initial bias against all as yet unapproved Church apparitions, as Scripture ("test the spirits") wisely advises us to do.
I believe the sarcasm was originally directed at my comments as if they were not sourced nor had any basis. By replying, again, with what could easily have been acquired on one's own if one truly was interested in the truth rather than ONLY "splattering" more of the same unsourced bias, I think I replied, really unnecessarily, but did it anyway, with what facts were requested but are available for all to see, and without any suggestion that I have a "devotion" to any particular site, which is your projection/judgement upon me. Devotion certainly is something separate from an interest. I have a devotion to the Blessed Mother and thus defend whatever witnessed fruits have come through her intercession anywhere....as witnessed by the proven comments of a now Saint Pope as well as the most recognized Marian experts. There is no order by the Church to be biased against any as yet unapproved private revelations. What the Church, through scripture itself, DOES advise is to NOT stifle the Spirit. The term, bias, itself suggests a pre set a priori judgement that prevents one from being open to using one's own God given reason to use upon just those guidelines given for our protection. Otherwise it gets into the realm of clericalism which has gotten us into a lot of trouble via fear of condemnation from some position's authority. I would also add that when it comes to private revelations which come in all manner of approval: partial messages; messages without visionary approval; place without visionary; acknowledgement of the necessity of a shrine without approval of happenings; approval by one bishop at one time but put back into neutral or even condemnation by some predecessors; one could easily reason that if one is not ordered to believe even after a full Church approval besides a local approval then one can believe (following one's conscience as respected by the Church which may include more true facts not recognized by a pretty clueless or "biased" local authority) represented by a misguided and improper examination's outcome. And this last is what the Church exemplified when the responsibility for judgement in the case of the Medj. phenomenon was taken from the local authority. Now it doesn't really matter to me if you are biased in general, as you confess, or not since I haven't made any judgement against your personal conscience or thoughts as you have to my own. May God grant us more "splattering" of proven facts and evidence so that our lamps are not kept under those proverbial baskets due to any unwarranted fear. And thank God for the "whistleblowers" who continue to investigate what is probably still being kept hidden from us even from approved apparitions like Fatima! Or else heaven's plans could be stifled for even longer than they have....and to the detriment for the souls of the faithful.
You originally stated: I politely asked you to provide good source references for these other "notable" "witnessed" incidents of controversial gifting to Pope Francis. If they are "note-able" surely they must be well noted/witnessed and reported somewhere? You provided generic syndicated Net "reporting" (unsourced conjecture with little/no quotes even from the Pope) about Papal selfies and over use of the Internet . (Hardly an example of "notable other witnessed circumstances where this Pope ... received various "gifts" related to a lot of individuals and for various reasons...") Then you explode like a can of beer left in the sun . Nevermind, I seem to have caught you at a bad time.
"misguided and improper examination's outcome. And this last is what the Church exemplified when the responsibility for judgement in the case of the Medj. phenomenon was taken from the local authority." Obedience and Humility...is the common thread Brother al
SEP 15 (Medjugorje Today) - These days the French priest and writer Fr. René Laurentin visits Medjugorje again, a good month before his 97th birthday. In the morning of October 15 Fr. Laurentin heard visionary Vicka Ivankovic-Mijatovic give her testimony to pilgrims. In the evening, he was present when visionary Ivan Dragicevic had his daily apparition in his private chapel, local resident Laura Marcazzan Budimir reports from Medjugorje. Fr. Laurentin was the foremost Catholic mariologist of the 20th century. In the 1980s and the 1990s he published some of the most influential books on Medjugorje, among them the first scientific studies of the visionaries and the apparitions (co-authored with Dr. Henri Joyeux as medical expert) and a total of 17 yearbooks that chronicled the apparitions and life in Medjugorje in general. http://www.medjugorjetoday.tv
Another question put to Manfred Hauke in the same interview was Do you see the grace of God at work in Medjugorje? His reply was the following: When people convert, pray rightly, receive the sacraments, and renew their Christian life, without a doubt the grace of God is at work. This is valid for every place in the world and certainly also for Medjugorje.
A rubicon has been crossed with this post. It is one thing to say that Abbé Laurentin made a mistake with regard to an alleged visionary, but to say that 'he is not trustworthy, has concealed the facts he was aware of and has intentionally told things that are not true' is to call his integrity into direct question. Such unsubstantiated allegations in written form constitute libel. In the name of standards of discussion on this forum and its public reputation I call directly on the moderators to ask for this post to be withdrawn or else for appropriate action to be taken towards the poster.
I have deleted Maria's post and sent a warning. I am less concerned about the libel than the lack of charity. How can we be defending our mother when we are attacking her children? I hate banning people Maria but one more attack like this and it's out the door and never come back. Be careful with intemperate language. Attaking Rene Laurentin of all people, for goodness sake he is the world's top Mariologist.
Padraig, For days the forum is quiet...you go to bed and the next morning all hell breaks loose. A servants mission is never done Brother al
Yes although I would say 99% of the times things are great, so I can't complain. 100% per cent quiet is for heaven.
