Garabandal Objections: "closed till after the Feast of Assumption"

Discussion in 'Marian Apparitions' started by Timothius722, Aug 27, 2014.

  1. Glenn

    Glenn Guest

    The plain truth here is , this is a total waist of time and energy,and detracts from all of our spiritual lives. The reason I can state this, being 100% certain is NO ONE here is going to change the mind of any other person who has an opposing view. So why bother ? As I close all my posts : "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is will suffice."
     
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  2. little me

    little me Archangels

    I know it's been said before but I'll say it anyway. Nobody here is forced to read any/all threads. If you see a thread that you think may offend you (self-love and we all suffer from it at times in our journey) then you are free to skip over it. I don't think that anybody would deny that SOMETHING happened in Garabandal. The issue is whether it was the Blessed Virgin Mary at work or the devil.
    If someone chooses to dedicate their life to the promotion of a private revelation, before the Holy Mother Church has officially accepted it as worthy of belief, then they should exercise humility when unbelievers question the revelation. The fact that a person feels called to promote something in no way validates it as truth.
    Mary uses, as instruments, the humble. She cannot use the arrogant and proudful. Nobody on this forum can demand agreement with their OPINION. Humility- live it, be it, love it.
    God bless.
     
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  3. Glenn

    Glenn Guest

    " little me", I don't mind that you misunderstand my passion, faithfulness, and dedication in defense of Mary's apparitions and messages, as "arrogant and proudful", but I never "demanded" anything, just "defended" ,there is a big difference.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2014
  4. Timothius722

    Timothius722 Archangels

    I think it is important to discuss it...it is part of the process of discernment. This board is often likened to a family...and I agree it is but families often have lively debates. A major event took place regarding the Garabandal prophesies when Joey died without receiving his sight back. What does this mean? Does it mean all of the Garabandal is wrong or just a part of it? What about the credibility of the purported Warning and Miracle ? As I have said...I do not condemn Garabandal because the Church has not condemned Garabandal but do you think the failed prophecy that Joey would regain his eyesight when the so called Miracle happened...could this affect the decision of the Church? Has Joey's death changed or modified your position in any way as it has done mine?
     
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  5. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    It doesn't necessarily mean that "Garabandal is wrong or just part of it". Could your understanding of what 'his eye's seeing the miracle' might have meant differently than we thought? I for one have been wrong many of times looking through the fog of my own lenz and not understanding the mind of God. Reading the diary of Elizabeth Kindelmann and the ongoing conversations she had with our Lord is a great example of how she was humbled to see things totally different then our Lord. I can say, like so many others, I don't understand why Joey did not see the miracle before he died, and it hurt me at first, then I heard "my ways are not your ways" in prayer. Joey was not only a big part of Garabandal, I believe his real part in Garabandal may be forthcoming in someway unbeknown to us currently.
     
  6. Timothius722

    Timothius722 Archangels

    Thank you Fatima for that...as I was hurt also...that's probably the real reason I opened this thread...to try and reach a little resolution. I hope others would voice there hurt or disappointment also. Its good to cleanse the soul.
     
  7. kathy k

    kathy k Guest

    Glen is a moderator on the forum - he doesn't have the luxury of ignoring threads he doesn't agree with.

    As much as I detest confrontation, I am often led into the fray because leaving some statements unchallenged risks that those unseen numbers who are reading these posts will be misinformed or led astray.

    We are a family, and we all have our passions. You can count on our brother Glen to speak up anytime Garabandal is the topic of conversation.
     
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  8. fallen saint

    fallen saint Baby steps :)

    As my prayer life has dwindled, so has my inspiration to write my thoughts. Having said that, i sometimes wonder if the visions or visionaries are put on a pedestal...way before their time. Do these visions give us anything new to lead us to salvation. Fatima at least gave us a if you don't, this will happen. And the prophecies came true. Most other prophecies are so general that they can be interpreted 1000 ways. Glen, i understand it is your life calling to push Garabandal...but our real life calling is to be saints first. Thats my biggest issues with all the visionaries. If they do not give 110% (the cross) then its hard to except their visions. Lourdes and Fatima seers gave up the world... because they were touched by God. Once you enter the mystical, there must be complete focus. If anyone of us had visions of the Mother of God, i think we would be completely focused on one thing and only one thing. The salvation of souls...getting married, having businesses, making money is not how the mystical works. But then again this is coming from a fallen saint.

    May Gods Will Be Done
     
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  9. Mac

    Mac "To Jesus, through Mary"

    This may not be true. I have heard of a false mystic in France who filled the churches with penitents , lined the streets with processions , yet the devil was prepared to suffer this ,so he would gain his own end, which at that time was to break the hold of the Jesuits.
    It is not the laymans fault the church has with -held approval .
    And it is not anyone's fault Joey died without his new eyes.
    It's just a fact that this prophecy has failed.And with much other troubles with other prophecy from Garabandal this new problem just adds more problems and leaves some of us with more questions .
    Questions which cannot be answered , like ,How does Daniel feel now, knowing he may have to die to receive his healed body?.
    Questions like ,why would a blind man be promised new eyes when he dies ?

    And to Andy, Garabandal was huge, really big news in the church around the world in the 60's-70's If this isnt a worthy discussion ,what is?
    There are so many prophets here these days and everyone says we must discern . Yet some dont approve discerning if it is negative?
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2014
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  10. jose

    jose Angels

    No, the motive is my personal search in the spiritual realm. I am searching and looked at the spiritual phenomena but I did not find any that could convince me to be true. I am a scientist and when somebody tells me that a miracle occurs I have to be careful before I believe. And I do not believe in all these apparitions because there are more contradictions than real proves that they indeed happened.
     
  11. jose

    jose Angels

    Glenn, this is indeed private and not approved revelation. It is your thing if you dedicate your life to it but do not expect others to accept an unapproved apparition. We have the right to doubt!
     
  12. hope

    hope Guest

    Reading through this thread reminded me of an apparently failed part of another great prophecy and devotion which has spread in recent years. How could the great apostle of Divine Mercy get something so wrong. Why did Jesus tell St. Faustina this?

    A Convent Conundrum?
    Dr. Robert Stackpole Answers Your Questions on Divine Mercy
    By Dr. Robert Stackpole, STD (May 20, 2010)
    Over the past few months I have received two questions about a most perplexing aspect of the life of St. Faustina. An inquirer named Paul wrote:

    Our pastor began to read St. Faustina's Diary, and in a discussion with me one Sunday after Mass said that he might have found a contradiction in the Diary. The pastor said that in one part of the Diary Jesus tells Faustina she must never leave her order/convent, and later on in the Diary Faustina contemplates leaving her order to start a new one. Is this a contradiction?


    Another reader of my column, named Kevin, sent in this concern:

    Our Blessed Savior promised St. Faustina a new convent during her lifetime, but ... this never became a reality. The anti-Divine Mercy crowd often cites this unfulfilled promise as a way to discredit the Diary.


    These are difficult questions, indeed. Why did Jesus tell St. Faustina that she must never leave her convent, only to ask her to do so several years later? Also, why did Jesus make a promise to her that she would be able to leave her convent to found a new religious order — a promise that He did not keep?

    Let's deal with the first question. Paul's pastor sees a contradiction between Jesus' express desire for St. Faustina to remain in her convent, and His call to her later to leave her convent and found a new one, as the beginning of a new religious order. A close reading of the text of the Diary, however, makes it clear that Jesus did not say to Faustina that she must never leave her convent and her order, but only that she must not do so at the time she first contemplated leaving, that is, during her postulancy in the Sisters of Our Lady of Mercy.

    In her Diary, entry 19, after St. Faustina had resolved to inform the Mother Superior of her decision to leave, Jesus appeared to her in a vision, His face tearful and sorrowful, and covered with wounds. He said to her: "It is you who will cause Me this pain if you leave this convent. It is to this place that I called you and nowhere else; and I have prepared many graces for you." Sister Faustina resolved to stay put; but notice that Jesus did not say to her that she must never leave her order for the rest of her life. That would be reading too much into the text.

    Now let's look at the second question. Why did Jesus break His promise to her that she would leave her convent to found a new religious order, dedicated exclusively to The Divine Mercy?

    On the one hand, it is clear that St. Faustina discerned that Jesus told her on several occasions that His will was for her to leave her convent and start this new order. For example, in Diary entry 435, He promises to her cryptically: "By your entreaties you and your companions shall obtain mercy for yourselves and the world. ... Do not fear; I Myself will make up for everything that is lacking in you." The reader of the Diary is not made aware of what St. Faustina is referring to until the next Diary entry, 436, where she explains: "The secret is this: God demands that there be a Congregation which will proclaim the mercy of God to the world, and by its prayers, obtain it for the world."

    In that same entry Jesus says to her: "I desire that there be such a Congregation." In entry 438, Jesus says that He desired that "such a congregation be founded as soon as possible, and you shall live in it together with your companions. My Spirit shall be the rule of your life. Your life is to be modeled on Mine, from the crib to My death on the Cross. Penetrate My mysteries, and you will know the abyss of My mercy toward creatures and My unfathomable goodness — and this you shall make known to the world. Through your prayers you shall mediate between heaven and earth."

    con.
     
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  13. hope

    hope Guest

    Now, it is clear that when Jesus called her to found this new Congregation, and made these promises to her, He knew very well that she was dying of tuberculosis, and that she would never be able to carry out His requests. So what was He up to?

    There are two possibilities here:

    1) Jesus asked her to found this Congregation not because He really wanted her to do it, but because He wanted her to learn to let go of every last attachment in her heart to earthly possessions and securities, and to learn to completely abandon herself to His will and His plan. Saint Faustina was deeply devoted to her religious order, and the thought of leaving it filled her with sorrow and dread. In other words, Jesus was leading her to a deeper trustful surrender to His will, in somewhat the same way that he led the patriarch Abraham in Genesis 22. God asked Abraham to make a sacrifice of his only and beloved son, Isaac, not because God really wanted Isaac to be sacrificed, but because He wanted to test Abraham and bring him to a deeper surrender of faith.

    2) Saint Faustina's discernment of Jesus' request was faulty. She got it partially wrong. Jesus did reveal to her His will for a new Congregation to be founded, but she was mistaken in believing that Jesus had asked her to leave her order and establish the new one herself. This possibility should not shock us: not even the saints of God are infallible in discerning God's will in difficult matters, and there are several indications here that she did get this one wrong. For example, neither her spiritual directors nor her archbishop were convinced that it was God's will that she should leave her order and try to accomplish this task herself. The archbishop asked her to pray for a clear, outward sign of God's will (entry 693), and the only sign she received was the steady worsening of her physical condition. Her principal guide in these matters, Fr. Sopocko, wrote these words about this predicament in his "Recollections":

    While she was in Cracow, Sister Faustina in her letters to me frequently raised this subject and asked for my advice ... I counselled caution and recommended that she inform her confessor and her superiors ... At a certain time, Sister Faustina wrote that she had already received permission from her superior general and her confessor, with the condition that I give my permission. I wrote back that for me the permission alone of her superiors was not sufficient for me. I would agree if she received a clear order to leave the congregation, and only in those circumstances. She never did receive such a directive; she remained in her Congregation and died in it.


    So, it is possible that Jesus did not actually call St. Faustina to found this new religious order herself, and that her own discernment of His will on this point was clouded. This would not be surprising, since, at the time, her whole body was under severe strain from massive infection by tuberculosis. Moreover, this explanation does not require us to believe that Jesus actually made false promises to Faustina. It is one thing for God to call someone to do something when He actually intends to prevent them from accomplishing it (as He did with Abraham). It is another thing to believe that Jesus would actually make false promises about the future to Faustina as part of His plan for her spiritual growth. Does God tell "white lies"?

    On the other hand, at times St. Faustina was absolutely and totally convinced that leaving her order to found a new one is precisely what God wanted her to do:

    I had such a clear understanding of the things the Lord was asking of me that truly were I to say that I do not understand what God is demanding from me, I would be lying, because the Lord is making His will known to me so clearly and distinctly that I do not have the least shadow of doubt about them (Diary, 615).


    That does not sound like a person whose mind was clouded on the subject!

    Well, it is hard to know which of these two explanations best fits all the facts. I lean toward the second explanation myself. But one thing we do know for sure: Jesus really did intend to found a new religious order dedicated to The Divine Mercy through St. Faustina, even if she could not leave the convent herself and establish it in person. I will let Fr. Sopocko tell the rest of this remarkable story, from his own recollections:

    When I saw her on her deathbed ... I told her that the demand that she leave her Congregation to found a new one was an illusion and I asked her to pray for that intention. I would come the next day and request an answer.

    On the following day I said Mass for this intention, during which some thoughts or interior inspirations came to me, that just as Sister Faustina herself could not paint the image of the Merciful Jesus, so she herself could not found a new congregation. But because of the terrible times approaching, such a congregation was needed.

    When in the evening of that day, I visited Sister Faustina again ... I asked her if she could give me an answer to the question I had asked her the day before. Sister Faustina considered for a moment, and then said: "Father, you received an answer today during Mass; I do not need to say anything more."...

    When I visited her in the last days of her life in the hospital in Pradnick ... she told me then ... that she had a vision that I was receiving the vows of the first six members of the new congregation in a small wooden chapel. In fact, in 1944 in Vilnius on 16th November I did receive the first private vows from six women who had decided to serve God in the new congregation, and in addition to the usual three vows they made a fourth, to propagate the devotion to the Divine Mercy ... And the vows were made in the wooden Chapel of the Carmelite Sisters ...

    She also told me that she saw the first convent of the congregation, a large but poor house, with a great spirit within it and it stood beside a church ... When in 1947, I visited the house of the new congregation (Handmaids of Divine Mercy) in Mysliborz near Gorzow, I saw that everything confirmed what she had said, exactly.

    http://thedivinemercy.org/library/article.php?NID=2706
     
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  14. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    I will offer my own 'two pennyworth' on this. When I first heard that Joey had died I had two 'conflicting' responses. I was immediately surprised, followed quite quickly with the rather opposing emotion that I was not really surprised at all. The news has not affected in any way my conviction that Garabandal is true. This is because although this matter was clearly important to Joey and his family, it was, as someone has mentioned, a personal message for Joey and not critical to the Garabandal events.

    jose mentions being a scientist and this is why he questions Garabandal. Weel, I am a scientist also and it is one of the reasons I came to love Garabandal. For me, more than any other apparition or supernatural event, Garabandal provides abundant satisfaction for those who want strong evidence in support of an intervention by God. But just as the evidence of God's wonders in the physical world around us seem to leave many scientists unconvinced of God's existence, so, in the same way, people are able to dismiss the amazing things that happened in Garabandal. It is their choice. It is their loss.
     
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  15. jose

    jose Angels

    davidtlig, I am happy to find also some scientists in this forum. But you have to be with me when I say that there is not prove at all of supernaturality in the events like Medjugorje or Garabandal. If there would be a scientific prove that supernatural events indeed occurred it would be insane not to believe. But there is none. It is surprising to find in this forum people that say they have had apparitions. In a recent thread it was about 10% of the people that got involved in the discussion. Do you really believe that? Do you have any prove that Jesus or the Virgin is appearing usually to a particular percentage of the world population and that some of them are members of this forum? Really?

    To prove that some events indeed happened or about the existence of something it is indeed very easy. It is what we scientist usually do with planets, stars, particles, proteins, enzymatic processes etc... but nobody can prove that our Lord appeared to him or her. If on top of it, we have ridiculous explanations like in the case of Medjugorje when the Virgin was about to drop the Child or the ridiculous story of the handkerchief or the famous invisible writing analysed only by a cousin of one of the visionaries then why should I believe the rest?
     
  16. andree

    andree Powers

    Hola from Espana!

    Just posting from our vacation rental in Spain to say that I was in Garabandal last week with my family, which was a truly wonderful visit with many graces still being felt in our family. What a huge gift it was for me to be able to visit this Holy site with my family. The town was very calm, and we saw no more than 10 pilgrims. I went into the church a few times and at each time, saw people in there that I later saw at work in town - a man I later saw on a tractor, two workman on the roads, local shop owners, and the lady who runs Hotel Vega (Mari Loli's sister) and others... It seemed like a town where locals still revolve around the Church. Only two boutiques in town, both very quiet and we were alone in both shops. We walked to the pines alone, stopping at the chapel and other points along the way to pray, again on our own. At the pines, we were alone except for a young Spanish girl sitting on a bench talking with a priest. We had the Holy place almost to ourselves and were able to pray in silence and without distraction from others. Just before leaving the pines, a workman arrived with his leaf blower to clean the place and came to us to apologize in advance for the noise he was about to make - he too, obviously respectful of the holiness of the site.

    Garabandal is a breath of fresh air in terms of shrines for its peacefulness, its non-commercial environment and the most simple lives of the villagers whom I saw. We also saw the grocery truck arrive in the village, which was truly wonderful to see because it's another sign that the town hasn't grown enough to have its own grocery store!

    I haven't stopped thinking about that trip and how lucky we were to visit such a place that has retained much of its simplicity, when compared with other sites in the world with its crowds, shops, etc.

    It's sad of course if Joey's death has caused some to lose faith, but having been in that church and town in such serenity I can't help but think that all the hoopla about its authenticity has helped preserve the site from denaturation. Maybe that is also part of Our Lady's plan?
     
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  17. Bonaventure

    Bonaventure Guest

    I believe this thread is a microcosm of what is about to unfold in our church. Now don't get upset everyone....I value all of your opinions and believe you have a right to say them! But take a big step back.....we will join different camps one against the other....it just happened right here. Now, I walk with brother Glen on this issue! It is his life's work for sure and I am an ardent supporter of Garabandal. The turmoil, barbs and disagreements are just a promise of what's in our future. We must all stand TOGETHER in Christ under Our Lady's mantle.....
     
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  18. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I think the Garabandal messages do give another 'piece of the puzzle', not of something new for salvation, but something essential for our journey in the upcoming darkness. After all, Fatima, Lourdes, Akita or any other apparition have not given us 'anything new for salvation'. When Moses led the Iraelites out of Eygpt he brought them through the desert and taught them dependency of God. To me, this is what our Lady has been appearing all over the world for over the past 200 years. She will lead us to safety, under her mantle and teach us how to depend on God alone, just as Moses did. And on this journey we can expect many complainers, because their life, like the Israelites is not going to be a pleasant one. But for those who perserve they will see a promised land unmatched in history, in what St. John Paul called "the new springtime for the Church".
     
  19. Glenn

    Glenn Guest


    Fallen, I am not here to "push Garabandal " as you incorrectly state. Being so closely involved has allowed me to have a unique perspective to help " explain" the many facets of this 4 year apparition, and messages. It is a shame that everyone can not meet Conchita personally, because in doing so, you would hae the opportunity to meet " HUMILITY" . I and many other do admire her for her spiritual wisdom and humility, what is wrong with that ? That should be all our goals ,toward sainthood.

    Also , these apparitions do help us toward salvation. This is one of my biggest gripes with people who do not understand the purpose of Garabandal, its NOT the whether or not she appeared there,or the prophecies, ITS MARY'S MESSAGES FOR OUR SALVATION ! EVen Conchita said ""But, if we heed the Message, believing in the apparitions is of no importance.".
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2014
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  20. Glenn

    Glenn Guest

    Yes, we all know its not approved, BUT, we also know that the Vatican REFUSES to say anything until the date they were given of the Miracle comes! So its a matter of how you look at it. Its called "prudence ".Not to mention the incredible long list of supporters who were popes & saints , give us hope that the Vatican will someday approve it, after the Miracle.
     
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