Thought this might help to cope with the current situation Blessed John Henry Newman "But in truth the whole course of Christianity from the first, when we come to examine it, is but one series of troubles and disorders. Every century is like every other, and to those who live in it seems worse than all times before it. The Church is ever ailing, and lingers on in weakness, {355} "always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in her body." Religion seems ever expiring, schisms dominant, the light of Truth dim, its adherents scattered. The cause of Christ is ever in its last agony, as though it were but a question of time whether it fails finally this day or another. The Saints are ever all but failing from the earth, and Christ all but coming; and thus the Day of Judgment is literally ever at hand; and it is our duty ever to be looking out for it, not disappointed that we have so often said, "now is the moment," and that at the last, contrary to our expectation, Truth has somewhat rallied. Such is God's will, gathering in His elect, first one and then another, by little and little, in the intervals of sunshine between storm and storm, or snatching them from the surge of evil, even when the waters rage most furiously. Well may prophets cry out, "How long will it be, O Lord, to the end of these wonders?" how long will this mystery proceed? how long will this perishing world be sustained by the feeble lights which struggle for existence in its unhealthy atmosphere? God alone knows the day and the hour when that will at length be, which He is ever threatening; meanwhile, thus much of comfort do we gain from what has been hitherto,—not to despond, not to be dismayed, not to be anxious, at the troubles which encompass us. They have ever been; they ever shall be; they are our portion. "The floods are risen, the floods have lift up their voice, the floods lift up their waves. The waves of the sea are mighty, and rage horribly; but yet the Lord, who dwelleth on high, is mightier."
Well, no, Julia, I wasn't throwing out any baby. There is no comparison between Luther's revolt and what's happening now. The opening post in this thread insults Catholics who have a preference for the Tridentine Mass. That's something I notice about people who portray Pope Francis as a living saint - they invariably feel a need to insult those who don't share their opinion. Some of the rest of that post seemed silly to me but that's one person's opinion. The smoke of Satan does, indeed, find its way into all sorts of places and all sorts of statements. Just as we could lose our souls by harbouring anger or resentment, we could also lose our souls by going with the flow. Nobody here is advocating deserting the Church. And nobody is advocating that people stop praying or fasting for the Pope. Catholics actually have a right to request and receive clear teaching from their pastors - even or perhaps especially from the Pope and it doesn't make us bad Catholics to say that the Pope is failing in his duty no matter how cuddly or kind you believe him to be.
Fatima, I hope we understand the importance of receiving Eucharistic Jesus worthily, in a state of Grace. I think one of the BIG problems we have is so many people are confusing personal opinions of the Pope with Doctrine. Every word that comes out of the Popes mouth is not Doctrine, they are his views and opinions. And I wonder if that is at the heart of the disputes and accusations we plough through these days. We are not obliged to commit the sins against the 6th Commandment because we hear the Pope said something about how to meet todays challenge with so many fallen away souls, in an effort to call them back to the Faith. We can hold fast, and pray for the conversion of those who have lost the Faith. Please God make all this go away or get me out of here. I am ready for my wings. LOL
Thank you for your reply Dolours. I need to just clarify one point. I don't remember saying the Pope is cute or cuddly. I am flattered you believe I have warm feelings towards Holy Father. One blessed example of how we are told the Christians used to be. 'See how they love one another.' And no, I won't be drawn out on my personal opinion about Holy Father. That would be way above my pay grade as a mere servant of the Lord. LOL
A grammatical error on my part. That should have read "no matter how cuddly or kind one believes him to be". I didn't ask, nor would I expect you to give your personal opinion about the Holy Father. I don't doubt that you love all your fellow Christians and give the Holy Father the respect due to him by virtue of the office he holds.
"Every word that comes out of the Popes mouth is not Doctrine, they are his views and opinions." That is the magic. And not to disagree because your view is correct. But to add...not his views and opinions but HIS spirituality. That is the magic. He is Leading by example. We had the evangelizer, we had the scholar and God has now given us the example. Read the homilies, they are more mystical then any of the other Popes of the last 100 years. If one touches the mystical...the whole world changes. Once one breaks through to the mystical...rigidity becomes impossible. Our only salvation is mercy. Because we all deserve condemnation.
Julia, you are missing the main point. If anyone, including a pope, brings scandal (receiving communion in the state of mortal sin) to anyone then it is an abomination. Now, the pope is not just another "opinion", he is the vicar of Christ. He is the head of Christ's Church. He is listened to by many, whether he gives good "opinions" or bad. In the case where he gives others a free ticket to receive the body and blood of Jesus in Eucharist (via ambiguity), he and the priest who gives scandal to the body and blood will be held accountable for this abomination. Surely you realize this? Saints have literally lost their heads in defense of marriage and their defense against adultery. How is it that someones "opinion" can now make their martyrdom something other than courageous witness to the truth?
All these saints and martyrs did not die confessing the sins of their brethren, or have I missed something. If I follow your logic. Was Blessed Mother stupid for not shouting to anyone who would listen that her Son was an innocent man, and those who killed Him were breaking the 5th Commandment, a mortal sin, and would end up damned for what they did. From a human perspective, and in line with this thread, that would have fitted the duty to defend the Faith. At least that is how it comes across to me. And it feels like a calumny fest going on all the time.
Although Pope Francis has brought confusion and division (plainly demonstrable on these threads), he has not crossed the line to either abomination or formal heresy, in my opinion. If he had, the Cardinals with their dubia would have no need to ask for clarification. Fallen Saint may well be correct, he may yet turn out to be a great Pope. That doesn't alter the reality that he has, at present, confused many. For example, I can't for the life of me understand statements that describe communists as the ones who 'think like Christians'. Maybe the statement is 'mystical', whatever that means. It could also be wrong. Some questions: 1. What is the Church definition of 'mystical'? 2. What is the Church definition of 'spirituality'? Finally, some of Pope Francis' henchmen assert that the views of all popes before him must be ignored, and only his views matter. If so: a). This pulls the rug from under Francis himself because this nullifies the doctrine of Infallibility revealed by a previous pope. b). He immediately becomes utterly irrelevant himself upon his death. The highest compliment that previously could have been said about a pope was that Peter spoke through him. This pope's acolytes, or at least the most vocal of them, tell us that Peter and all his successors up to and including the Pope Emeritus are irrelevant. This is tantamount to the establishment of a new church. There is no direct evidence that these are the views of pope Francis. He would do well to dissociate himself from these idolators.
The Church rules you speak of are......""the 10 commandments""! The Ten Commandments: I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day. Honor your father and your mother. You shall not kill. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods. We can all see number 5............................. You shall not kill. We can all also see number 6.............. You shall not commit adultery. Now imagine the Church changing either one of these commandments or any other commandment!? Say the person who commits adultery because his first marriage was found to be valid but he remarries anyway!! and now the church finds that this poor adulterer is unable to control his passions and the poor thing can not live to up to the ideal of the truth of the Catholic Church, so this new excuse of lust and weakness is apparently allowable by our new church and so he can recieve communion even though he is an adulterer!? Well now this new insight and teaching of The Catholic Church would not only relate to the poor adulterer but also to the poor murderer and the poor theif etc! With the above permissiom for an adulterer to remain in sin with the churches blessing; the poor murderer and the poor theif could say I'm unable to control my passions too! and I'm unable to live up to the ideal of the catholic faith as well! and the priest accompanying any one of these people would be unable to speak Christs truth because instead he would have to hear their insincere convoluted reasonings for their sin in the confessional and give absolution as directed by the Church bescuse this new teaching admits these sins and now the adulterer, the murderer and the theif who say they are going to continue in their sins are able to recieve Holy Communion with the Churches blessing! Fallen Saint...................Is this the teaching Of Our Lord Jesus Christ? The same Jesus Christ who suffered and died for you and me?
To ever assume the Blessed Mother was stupid for anything is well ......... It was not the role of the Mother of God to shout down the evil of the soldiers who killed her her son. She like her son, bore the passion and was co-redemptrix. There is a time and a season for defending the faith and scripture was fulfilled through the passion of Christ, starting with his agony, alone in the garden. Mary bore all Christ's suffering in her heart. For our part, we to suffer in our heart for the sinfulness of our generation. But, it does not stop there for us. We must profess the truths of the faith without ambiguity when the world and the church for that matter, in its highest offices, is rejecting the truths of God. There is a time and a season for all things and ours is time and season to boldly profess the unchanging teachings of God in a world that has lost the sense of sin. DO NOT BE AFRAID
If he had not been presumed "to have crossed the line to either abomination or heresy", the dubia would not have ever been asked for.
"his first marriage was found to be valid but he remarries" So in the eyes of the church he/she cannot participate in Holy Communion. That's it...period. But I have never argued they can. I have always stated they have to go through process. That is the main point. Pope Francis seems to be trying to make the door bigger. Note: making door bigger by making annulment easier. Right or wrong...it is not me in charge of all the souls on earth. I might not agree with all the decisions a General makes. But I do have to respect him/her when a war is taking place.
More positive news from Pope Francis. The bishops of chile disclosed the content of the meeting with the pope last February. He energically condemned the de criminalization of abortion, which is currently a very heated issue in chile. According to the bishops he also reiterated that remarried and divorced Catholics cannot have communion and to this effect he gave the example of his niece: 'I have a niece married with a divorcee, she is Catholic, goes to mass on Sunday's, and when she goes to confession she tells the priest 'I know you can't give me absolution but give me your blessing'." http://infocatolica.com/?t=noticia&cod=28885 (in Spanish) This is different from what we heard that the Argentinian bishops were told. So let's continue to pray for the pope because his heart indeed can change and, given the visible confusion Amoris has created, it may already be changing on this issue of the divorced and remarried.
I'm not going to take it upon myself to conclude that the Pope has crossed that line. I do think that it is not unreasonable for a lay Catholic to suspect that he is sufficiently close to that line to cause confusion and consternation, and that he should, in the interests of his flock, respond to the Dubia. The professionals could then, if necessary, take it from there.
Thank you for this reply Fatima. It has helped me identify why my feelings on this topic may be causing some consternation among some Catholics or Christians. My reaction to what Blessed Mother suffered in the agony and death of her Son is; we all killed her Son, myself included. The soldiers and Jews who were there represent all of us from Adam to the last man. My reaction to what Mary suffered as co-redemptrix is, what heartbreak have my sins caused you Heavenly Mother. My reaction to Christs agony in the garden is. Jesus let me watch and pray with Your beloved Apostles as You become aware of my sins for which You are about to atone; along with the terrible physical, mental, spiritual and emotional agony I have caused You. And Jesus forgive me for my lack of appreciation and gratitude for all you have done and suffered to Redeem me from the hell I have deserved by my own sinfulness. For those souls who are ignoring the 10 Commandments and defying Almighty God by their choices I pray, Father forgive them, they know not what they do. If I try to get into accusing any other soul, my inner peace suffers. So it seems God has not called me to join with the voices who feel called to accuse their brethren day and night before the assembly. Maybe some souls are called to shout it from the roof tops; but I seem to be called to just keep watch and pray. And my conscience tells me so by the lack of peace that enters my soul if I dare pass judgement especially on those God has placed in authority over me. God direct you in your firm belief, and God direct all of us in what we feel deep in our hearts. I do not speak as a coward, being the type that marches up to the Priest or Prelate and asking for clarity if the need arises; and without fear or favour for what the outcome may be. But not able to justify posting on a forum that is basically preaching to the converted, this does not make sense to me.
Division is one of the "standards" of the Human Condition. It has always been so ..... look at the Apostles and Church History. Division is not necessarily bad. Without division, humankind would devolve to the lowest common denominator. Into godless tyranny, slavery, misery and perversion. One only has to study 20th Century Marxist/National Socialism, their remnants today in N. Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Venezuela, Academia and every Urban Area long controlled by the Political Left ..... be it US or EU! Places where division was/is not allowed and adherence to The Agenda of the Elite is strictly enforced. Pope Francis has obviously produced Division, Confusion and Angst within The Church and within Christianity. Only time will tell if it is of the beneficial sort .... or NO!? GOD SAVE HERE!!
Thank you Julia and Fatima too for this discourse. I have been following it. I think you make an important point here Julia that I think we all should be aware of on all sides of this issue. That is: We are not all called to do the same thing in this battle. An army is made up of a lot of different types of soldiers. Not everyone is called upon to carry a rifle in the front lines. In fact I think in the actual army it takes 10 men to support every man who is actually fighting in the front line. So we are actually doing a disservice to the battle plan laid out by God by insisting that everyone does what we do. It is not the role of every Catholic to perform the same duty. Some are prayer warriors, some are theologians, some have been placed in a position where they have influence over others. We are a great tapestry of different skills and missions. Most important for each of us is to search for the truth and do what we feel God is asking us to.
I came across this from an article about Saint Padre Pio and thought it is very encouraging for souls like me who are afraid to be judgemental. I found it in the TRNS comments. Well worth the read..... Padre Pio Gleanings by Pascal Cataneo, a dear friend of Padre Pio’s. It recounts a meeting between Archbishop Lefebvre and the great Saint shortly before he died. The admonition St. Pio gave to the Archbishop is an admonition that the entire Church would do well to heed in these current times: Among the many, many people who came to see Padre Pio was Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who, later clinging stubbornly to Catholic Tradition, as he called it, questioned the authority of Vatican II and was removed from office by Pope Paul VI. The Archbishop had a meeting with Padre Pio in the presence of Professor Bruno Rabajotti. This witness reported that at a particular moment Padre Pio looked at Lefebvre very sternly and said: “Never cause discord among your brothers and always practice the rule of obedience, above all when it seems to you that the errors of those in authority are all the more serious. There is no other road than that of obedience, especially for those of us who have made this vow.” Padre Pio could give this advice because he had to obey some rather questionable orders himself. His attitude was to put this in God’s hands because He would find a way for Truth to triumph. It seems that Archbishop Lefebvre did not see things in quite the same way even if he did respond to Padre Pio with: “I Will remember that, Father.” Padre Pio looked at him intensely and, seeing what would soon happen, said: “No! You will forget it! You will tear apart the community of the faithful, oppose the will of your superiors, and even go against the orders of the Pope himself and this will happen quite soon. You will forget the promise you made here today and the whole Church will be hurt by you. DON’T SET YOURSELF UP AS A JUDGE. DON’T TAKE POWERS THAT DO NOT BELONG TO YOU AND DO NOT CONSIDER YOURSELF AS THE VOICE OF GOD’S PEOPLE, AS HE ALREADY SPEAKS TO THEM. DO NOT SOW DISCORD AND DISSENSION. (emphasis mine) However, I know this is what you will do!”
And you wish to imply that we are in exactly the same situation now as Archbishop Lefebvre was then? Sorry this is just not so, things have radically changed since that claimed exchange took place. Padre Pio never heard doctrine being routinely denied (even if never directly but through clear implications and by reported and never denied conversations). I dread to think what Padre Pio's reaction would have been to our current situation. He never once celebrated the Novus Ordo Mass, do you think that he would have 'got away' with that refusal today in the light of the treatment of the Franciscans of the Immaculate and other traditional orders? It was reported that he refused so bless the post-Council revised and relaxed regulations for his own order and asked the head of the order, 'What do they think they are doing in Rome?'. Archbishop Lefebvre was the head of the Holy Ghost Fathers and his progressive subordinates totally ignored his instructions, following the Council and he felt that his (rightful) authority within the order was at an end together with those of more traditional bishops and superiors. He was just as 'sinned against' as sinner in the matter of obedience along with many others of his stature in the Church. As to the claimed assertion that Padre Pio said that the more mistaken our superiors are, the more we must obey them? I would need more than one witness to that supreme illogicality before believing that he ever said it.
