Pope Francis Allows Contraception for Zika Virus?

Discussion in 'Pope Francis' started by Fatima, Feb 18, 2016.

  1. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

  2. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    Well, this 'David guy' :) views our Pope as a truly wonderful example of Christ like behavior and beliefs. I may have gone a little further than the Pope in my appreciation of the good lady's situation on the other thread but when faced with so much pharisaical thinking being posted there is a tendency to go to the other extreme.

    Ah, and now we see the inevitable progression of Mr Voris on his inevitable slide into preaching against the Pope. For a long time he was able to keep telling us to keep with the Pope whatever we do. He hasn't quite got there yet but you watch, within one or two videos he will be formally telling us that we must oppose Francis.
     
    earthtoangels likes this.
  3. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    I think you just glanced at the title of Mr. Voris' video. I doubt you actually watched the video. If you had, you would have found it educating, respectful, and fair and 100% Catholic and loyal to the Magisterium.
     
  4. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    You are mistaken, Richard. I watched it right to the end. It was difficult to watch because it is so transparent where he is gradually taking the listener. On one level, he is pointing out the obvious, but his intentions are to ultimately undermine what Pope Francis is trying to teach us.
     
  5. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Voris does not intend to undermine the Pope. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

    Voris has done an excellent job putting Pope Francis' comments in the proper context.
     
  6. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    I thought the video did a good job of explaining that there is a difference between Infallibility and impeccability and that many people, even Catholics, don't grasp that difference.

    As for what Pope Francis is trying to teach us, if there is consensus on the lesson maybe you will let me know what it is. What I'm learning is that Catholics in Sparrows' situation could get a papal dispensation to use artificial birth control if only they had direct access to the Holy Father via some well connected bishop or a journalist friend on the papal flight.

    As others have said, this pop star style cult of the personality of the pope started with Pope St. John Paul 11. It wasn't a good development then when we had a Pope who didn't send mixed messages. It is disastrous now.
     
  7. CrewDog

    CrewDog Guest

    I'm not a huge fan of Voris but I do believe that he is earnest in his Faith and his views are worth considering. I don't believe he is a friend of the Pope but the below comments of modern communication technology, Catholic (&non-Catholic) misconceptions and it's dangers to the Church/Faithful is worth a look.

    http://www.churchmilitant.com/video...-of-peter?mc_cid=5eda75d369&mc_eid=2a0b6c7ef6

    GOD SAVE ALL HERE!!
     
  8. Booklady

    Booklady La Dolorosa

    AMEN! Now, I am totally confused. I realize he is the Vicar of Christ, and we should be very careful about how we address subjects of faith and morals, but to a simple lay person like myself, this statement causes visceral and cognitive dissonance. How is the Zika virus different from any other congenital disease that may harm a baby?
     
    MarysChild likes this.
  9. I doubt if many or anyone for that matter here is within the pay grade for giving advice when it comes to the depth of understanding held by the Magisterium in which stands the Pope's own understanding....or can top the CDC's, itself, own lack of full understanding of this Zika virus. They are themselves rather treating it as an unexploded bomb not understanding as yet its full repercussions. They admit that they don't even know how to interpret the findings of the only test available which is testing semen. There are cases that have come from men who had no symptoms and they don't know how long it can live in semen and so much more. I would assume, human nature being what it is, that the concern factor about just what to do registers far higher in those regions where hysteria and confusion is likely due to more real cases being reported. And as is so often the case in Latin America it is those remote regions of poverty where the purveyors of birth control and abortion enter in....with their own bags of goodies to offer...and in so many of those places the people may see a visiting priest a couple of times a year. Just as hindsight is always 20/20 eyesight from afar is usually pretty foggy at best.
     
  10. davidtlig

    davidtlig Guest

    Yes, I agree with this. I was going to reply to Booklady by simply saying that "it is all a matter of degree". I think I would actually go further and say it is all a matter of perceived degree.
     
  11. padraig

    padraig Powers

    My impression is that artificial contraception is very low down the list of his priorities.

    From reading some of his comments he sees himself , not as a Theologain but as a , 'Real', person dealing with , 'Real ' issues a person of deep compassion to whom theology must not get in the road of doing the, 'right thing'.

    I Know, I know it sounds bizarre , a Pontiff who is not interested in theology and whom believes it shouldn't get in the road , an anti intellectual and a popularist, that is how he comes across to me.

    But of course since he must , I assume, bw an intellectual himself, giving the job he is doing...this anti intellectualism must be something of a pose.

    He seems to me to be the most enormously complex character, very difficult to , despite the impression he gives of charismatic simplicity.

    I also think he has a character flaw which is devastating for anyone in a leadership role, especially religious leadership in that is he deeply thirsts for people's approval.

    Aslo I think he hs the most ferocious temper. I mean like a big rage and is enormously intolerant of people who do not get onboard with his views.
     
  12. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

    http://www.onepeterfive.com/the-galatians-two-moment-is-now/
    The Galatians Two Moment Is Now
    [​IMG]But when Cephas was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. – Galatians 2:11



    It’s been almost a week since the Holy Father’s now-infamous comments about how contraception might be permissible for eugenic purposes (ie., to prevent pregnancies at risk of birth defects due to the alleged effects of the Zika virus on a developing fetus.)

    In my initial analysis of the pope’s comments, I made clear that there was no other possible interpretation. He wasn’t talking about NFP or a general program of abstinence. He was referring to artificial methods of birth control. And he justified this completely un-Catholic opinion by referencing what is almost certainly a completely made up story about Pope Paul VI doing something not really very similar in the 1960s.

    I said in my original post that barring some very explicit clarification and correction from Pope Francis, we have now witnessed a sitting pope publicly contradicting infallible teaching. It should also be pointed out that this goes deeper — the Holy Father not only opposed the teaching of his predecessors, but the natural law itself, upon which this teaching is based.

    Well, thankfully, a clarification was issued, and it certainly did make things more clear:

    Vatican spokesman Fr. Federico Lombardi has affirmed that the Holy Father was indeed speaking of “condoms and contraceptives” when on the flight back from Mexico, Pope Francis said couples could rightly “avoid pregnancy” in the wake of the Zika virus scare.

    Fr. Lombardi told Vatican Radio today, “The contraceptive or condom, in particular cases of emergency or gravity, could be the object of discernment in a serious case of conscience. This is what the Pope said.”

    According to Lombardi, the pope spoke of “the possibility of taking recourse to contraception or condoms in cases of emergency or special situations. He is not saying that this possibility is accepted without discernment, indeed, he said clearly that it can be considered in cases of special urgency.”

    Lombardi reiterated the example that Pope Francis made of Pope Paul VI’s supposed “authorization of the use of the pill for the religious who were at very serious risk” of rape. This, said Lombardi, “makes us understand that it is not that it was a normal situation in which this was taken into account.”

    So to sum up: yes, he really did say what you think he said. But it’s apparently okay, because hey: he’s the pope!

    I also told you that Catholic apologists would attempt to spin this as perfectly fine. I told you that when they did this, they would be lying to you. This isn’t, of course, just a white lie, like the parent who tells his children that things are fine in a moment of danger or financial crisis in order to assuage fears over circumstances outside the child’s control.

    No, saying that things are fine in this circumstance is, in my opinion, a malicious lie, because it is one that will do irreparable damage to souls. Case in point: the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of the Philippines (CBCP) has now backed Francis’ statement:

    CBCP President Archbishop Socrates Villegas said the Pontiff’s statement is not changing church teaching on the unacceptability of artificial means of contraception.

    “The Holy Father was very clear and uncompromising about the evil of abortion. And we, your bishops, reiterate Church teaching: No matter that the child in the womb may be afflicted with some infirmity or deformity, it can never be moral to bring a deliberate end to human life. It is never for us to judge who should live or die!” he said.

    The Lingayen-Dagupan prelate added, “He then proffered the view that the evil of contraception was not of the same magnitude as the evil of abortion. Clearly, this was sound moral reasoning. The evil of stealing a few pesos cannot be compared with the evil of plunder.”

    Villegas noted that these positions are not in any way new, saying: “They have always formed part of Catholic moral theology and belong to the treasury of the Church’s heritage in health-care ethics.”

    “They have always formed a part of Catholic moral theology…”

    We have always been at war with Eastasia.

    Lies. Damned lies. Contraception is an intrinsic evil. Intrinsic evils are not able to be made anything other than evil — they cannot be mitigated by circumstance. (I’ve reached out to some very competent moral theologians to ask for help in explaining precisely why this thinking is wrong. I hope to be able to share that with you in a future post.)

    Meanwhile, the spin continues. Church Militant has suddenly found it profitable to admit that we’ve had bad popes in the past, and that not everything a pope says is infallible or above reproach. Unfortunately, they’re wielding the “he didn’t say anything ex cathedra” defense in an attempt to convince everyone waking up in the Matrix that there’s nothing to see here. Fr. Z took a similar approach, saying that the fact that this wasn’t an authoritative statement renders it “meaningless.” Jimmy Aikin, of course, issued yet another list of things “to know and share”, in which he stated that “On the subject of contraception, [the pope]did not answer one way or another. Instead, he recounted a reported incident from the 1960s…”

    Meanwhile, a Google search for “pope Francis Zika contraception” turns up nearly 4 million results, and many of those on the first few pages (beyond which not many searchers are likely to look) have headlines like this:

    [​IMG]

    This is the upshot. This is always the upshot. We need to put the idea to death that just because a papal statement is not infallible it is meaningless.

    Once a theological understanding of the distinctions between levels of Magisterial authority become the only way to determine whether or not the pope should be listened to, you’ve lost 99% of the world, and 90% or more of Catholics. The indefectible integrity of the deposit of faith is certainly objectively important. But on a subjective level, the only Magisterium that really matters in terms of what people believe and how this changes their behavior is, “The pope said X, so X is what Catholics believe.”

    Full stop.

    Get this through your heads, Catholic apologists. Your dissimulation on this issue is nauseating, and we’re way past playing footsie with the truth, or writing posts full of mental reservation. We just had the bishops of one of the most Catholic (by percentage of population) nations on earth give essentially a blanket opening to their faithful using contraception because of something the pope said on a plane.

    Con't


     
    Richard67 likes this.
  13. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

    Con't

    I’ve been arguing since 2013 that a pope can do a lot of damage without changing a single iota of doctrine. Francis keeps proves this with alarming frequency. Why are all Catholics of goodwill not on the same page? Why are so few of us lucid in our understanding that this is a pontificate which our Christian duty requires us to resist?

    We must still respect the office of the papacy. We must still, barring any juridical evidence to the contrary, accept that Francis is the pope. But we have now entered a moment in history where our bishops must take action on this. We need something definitive from them about Francis. It is imperative to the salvation of souls that they tell the faithful not to follow Francis into his contradiction of Church teaching.

    Pope Honorius I was posthumously anathematized by the Third Council of Constantinople, and arguably for less than Francis is doing now. Honorius was condemned more for failing to act than for the deliberate promotion of heresy. Because of his failure, the council declared:

    “We anathematize Honorius, who did not seek to purify this apostolic Church with the teaching of apostolic tradition, but by a profane betrayal permitted its stainless faith be surrendered.”
    In later comments made to the bishops of Spain, Pope Leo II explained further, saying that Honorius was one who did not, as became the apostolic authority, quench the flame of heretical doctrine as it sprang up, but quickened it by his negligence.

    Making excuses for Francis is no longer going to suffice. Looking for semantic loopholes that can be twisted into quasi-orthodox interpretations is disingenuous. Saying simply that we need to pray for Francis isn’t good enough. Waiting to see if God sends a meteor isn’t a solution. The benefit of the doubt can only be given when there is doubt. If there has ever been a time when episcopal spine was needed, this is it.

    We have not always been at war with Eastasia. We have not always believed the things Francis says we believe.

    Please, bishops. Do not leave us alone while the wolf in sheep’s clothing devours the flock. Please, do your duty and defend the faith, and the faithful. If you were waiting for the right moment to emulate Saint Paul in Galatians 2:11, this is it.
     
    little me likes this.
  14. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    Which bishops do you expect to do their duty on this? The bishops in the Philippines who have supported the statement? Western European and American bishops who would have us believe that adultery isn't really adultery so long as the second union appears to be stable? The best we can hope for is that the next pope will have the guts to preach the same Church teaching to the press corps as he does to the choir?
     
  15. BrianK

    BrianK Guest

    I'm just a lay person and I didn't write the article. I don't know which bishops might fulfill their duties in this regard other than two or three well known, holy and faithful men. I do know for certain that there are cardinals and bishops investigating how to go about addressing these errors but there is no current consensus on the best way to move forward.
     
  16. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    Sorry, Brian, having missed seeing the link above the picture in your post, I didn't realise you were quoting someone else. I hope and pray that addressing the errors doesn't mean full on confrontation. Schism does nobody any good.
     
    little me and BrianK like this.
  17. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers


    A Galatians 2 moment for sure. Maybe even a Blessed Anne Catherine Emmerich moment as well:

    April 12, 1820

    “I had another vision of the great tribulation. It seems to me that a concession was demanded from the clergy which could not be granted. I saw many older priests, especially one, who wept bitterly. A few younger ones were also weeping. But others, and the lukewarm among them, readily did what was demanded. It was as if people were splitting into two camps…”
     
    BrianK likes this.
  18. padraig

    padraig Powers

  19. BrianK

    BrianK Powers Staff Member

    And folks still deny this pope teaches heresy.
     
  20. TinNM

    TinNM Guest

    The author, Francis Rocca has written a number of articles for the liberal National Catholic Reporter.

    With the mosquito-borneZika viruscontinuing to spread through Central and South America,Pope Francissaid today that contraception could be seen as "the lesser of two evils" if women are concerned about having children with thebirth defectmicrocephaly.

    ...

    The pope compared the situation to a decree issued by Pope Paul VI, which said nuns in Africa could use contraception due to the threat of rape.​

    "Avoiding pregnancy is not an absolute evil," Francis said. "In certain cases, as in this one, such as the one I mentioned of Blessed Paul VI, it was clear. I would also ask doctors to do their utmost to find vaccines against these mosquitoes that carry this disease. This needs to be worked on."​

    Again, I might look into what he actually said instead of reaching hasty conclusions.
     

Share This Page