Will War Cancel Trump’s Triumphs?

Discussion in 'The Spirit of the USA' started by Richard67, Dec 31, 2017.

  1. Light

    Light Guest

    jackzokay

    An awesome post!

    It is very inspirational to read and feel your passion for what it should take to be considered a real Irishman, Scottish...etc.

    God Bless
     
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  2. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    jackzokay,

    I consider myself to be reasonably level headed, I think my posts back this up. IMHO, I have never "jumped up and down" for President Trump either to support him or to put him down but I am worried when I see other people doing this for either reason. We need to be as sober as we possibly can when it comes to politics. When I read about people giving Putin "a pass" in my opinion, I can't help but wonder why. My President can't even verbally commend Iranian citizens for speaking up against their government's support of terrorism without journalists assuming the USA aims to literally level Iran. But yet Putin can have his troops rampage Donbass which is not ok.

    I understand your frustration with your country and I feel very bad about it. It is like Ireland is surrounded by a pack of wolves but I am not certain that I would stand with Britain when I think that they are one of the wolves. Maybe I am wrong about this but doesn't Britain allow all the immoral things that you are against and they allowed these well before Ireland? I will pray for you and your country. I have wondered if one of the reasons the world has existed for as long as it has is due to Ireland fighting against all of these immoral things for so long. I wish I could say that about my own country.

    On another note, I have also wondered if the following has something to do with what Our Lady of Fatima tried to warn us about when she stated that “Russia will Spread its Errors",

    "In 1920, Russian Soviet Republic became the first country in the world to allow abortion in all circumstances,..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Russia .
    May God bless you.
     
  3. Byron

    Byron Powers

    Carol, we all love what you contribute here. It has been incredibly enlightening. But I'm sure I can speak for all, when I say none of us are giving Putin a pass. We are just informing the reality of why Putin is at war with Ukraine. He is defending his port, like we would defend ours in the Gulf of Mexico. It's that simple. Communist Russia did spread their errors worldwide without a doubt. My own family fought against communism during the Spanish Civil War. So, I do know first hand the errors of that horrid system. Today Russia is still a country we should be careful with. It's just that involving ourselves in another war for a port that does not belong to us is ludicrous. To spend our taxpayers money for another war right now is not wise. It is not that we defend Putin, but we understand where he's coming from. Every nation in the world protects their ports. If we provoke Russia enough, they may just provoke Europe. Do we want that?
     
  4. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    Byron, I am not certain that it is a good idea for the USA to be giving weapons to the Ukraine either, I have never said that it is. I still don't think that you fully understand what Russia has done involving eastern Ukraine, to Donbass in particular. What port are you referring to exactly? These maps may help you.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Dolours, I should have asked the same question of you that I asked of Byron in this post, which port are you referring to?

    Thank you both.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  5. CrewDog

    CrewDog Archangels

  6. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    I think it's Sebastapol in Crimea. There were thirty odd years to run on Russia's lease of the port when the the fighting started.

    I think that the Russians saw the overthrow of the elected leader in Ukraine as a threat to Russia by the EU/NATO but of course I could be wrong.
     
  7. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    Dolours, Thank you. This is my point, the port is in Crimea not near Donbass. After Russia annexed Crimea in 2014 they had their port but they didn't stop there.
     
  8. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Putin has supported the Donbass rebels and this is a reaction to the fact that the West orchestrated the violent overthrow of Yanukovych and continues to arm the Fake President Poroshenko and his murderous regime. If Putin can be faulted for anything, it is for not toppling Poroshenko and reinstalling the rightful President, Yanukovych. Of course, such an action on Putin’s part would only have led to more bloodshed and this is something that Russia has sought to avoid. This is why they have only provided minimal aid to the Donbass. But had they provided no military aid to the Donbass, Poroshenko and is Western-backed army would have wiped the Donbass right off the map and NATO would be sitting squarely on Russia’s borders. This is something that no sane Russian leader will ever permit. The West caused this present crisis in Ukraine and it will be up to the West to rectify the situation and bring to Justice those Neocons who orchestrated this mess and who continue to support it.
     
  9. Byron

    Byron Powers

    Carol, when Yanukovich is ousted, it prompted unrest in "Russophone" areas in east and south Ukraine. Over 80% are Russians who live in that region. Once the fighting began in that area, Russia takes control of Crimea from "far-right extremists who overthrew the President. And the fighting between Ukraine forces and Russia backed separatists continues. Obama's provision of weapons to the Ukraine government only fueled the conflict. It's sad because this is a senseless war. From 1764 to 1991 Ukraine territory belonged to Russia thanks to Catherine the Great. In 1991 Ukraine finally becomes an independent State. Unfortunately, in 2013 tens of thousands take to the streets to oust the President because he would not sign the EU trade deal. Well, because of this decision and thanks to Obama, Ukraine will probably be absorbed again by Russia.
     
  10. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    I don't think that Yanukovich was any great shakes but he was elected and I gather that the alternatives weren't much better except that they would have been Western puppets rather than Russians puppets. I could be wrong about this but I think what also sparked unrest in the Donbass was that the Russian language was banned or suppressed in some other way. I can understand an independent Ukraine wanting to rid itself of the last vestiges of Soviet colonialism but they must have been very naive to think that the Russians wouldn't do whatever it took to ward off any threat on their borders. The Ukrainians were badly advised and likely led to believe that NATO would come to their aid or at the very least the prospect of NATO rowing in behind them would be a deterrent to Russia. I feel very sorry for the Ukrainians. They deserve better.
     
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  11. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    It is correct that Yanukovych was no saint. But compared to Poroshenko, he was in fact a saint. Poroshenko, a fake President installed via a violent coup, is intensely unpopular amongst ordinary Ukrainians. His regime is more corrupt than Yanukovych ever was and his Western-financed economy continues to fail, as even some of its ardent American cheerleaders now admit. And the Western-armed Junta in Kiev continues to refuse to implement its obligations under the Minsk peace accords, above all granting the Donbass territories home rule and basic constitutional protections. The Kiev Junta's ideology and symbols include proudly neo-Nazi ones, which hate Russia and traditional Christian values almost equally. But Team Neocon was never concerned with the Ukrainian people; they only were concerned with taking control of Kiev, no matter how many lies and much blood it cost to take control and maintain control, no matter how much damage would eventually be done to Ukraine's economy.

    Also, during the years preceding the Maidan, Yanukovych had not been "pro-Kremlin" as is regularly asserted but had, on the advice of his American adviser Paul Manafort, tilted toward the West, toward the EU, in order to expand his electoral base beyond southeastern Ukraine. Putin's loathing for Yanukovych as a greedy and corrupt opportunist was well known in Moscow and Kiev, though you would never know this by watching the U.S. propaganda media machine.
     
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  12. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    This is an older article but it may prove to be helpful in this discussion,

    Prosecutor: Yanukovych's 'Mafia' Government Stole Up To $100 Billion From Ukraine And Some Of It Is Funding Rebels
    Guy Faulconbridge, Anna Dabrowska, and Stephen Grey, Reuters Apr. 30, 2014
    http://www.businessinsider.com/r-to...ine-up-to-100-billion-prosecutor-says-2014-30

    LONDON (Reuters) - Ukraine's chief prosecutor has accused Viktor Yanukovich of heading a mafia-style syndicate whose crimes cost the former Soviet republic up to $100 billion and said some of the stolen money was now being used to fund Russian-backed separatists.

    Ex-President Yanukovich fled to Russia in late February after a revolt that prompted Vladimir Putin to annex Ukraine's Crimea province, triggering the biggest confrontation between the Kremlin and the West since the end of the Cold War in 1991.

    Acting Prosecutor General Oleh Makhnitsky said that while president from 2010, Yanukovich personally ran a multi-billion dollar criminal syndicate whose tentacles reached almost all walks of the Ukrainian state and Ukrainian life.

    "Ex-President Viktor Yanukovich headed a mafia structure in Ukraine which spread across different state structures," Makhnitsky told Reuters in London on Tuesday after meeting U.S. and British officials about ways to recover stolen assets.

    Yanukovich could not be reached for comment on the accusations. He is at an unknown location in Russia but Reuters tried to contact people with links to him for a response. Makhnitsky said he would be arrested if he returns to Ukraine.

    British Home Secretary Theresa May said the meeting in London was aimed at providing "practical leadership and assistance to the Ukrainian government as they identify and recover assets looted under the Yanukovich regime".

    U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said on Tuesday that the United States was determined to help Ukraine find billions of dollars it says were stolen by Yanukovich and his aides.

    "We are determined to hold accountable those who were responsible for the theft of these Ukrainian assets," he said.

    Makhnitsky said that exact figures were impossible to give at such an early stage but that there was already evidence that $350 million had been stolen from the state by Yanukovich and his allies, including his two sons Oleksander and Viktor.

    "The loss to Ukraine is up to $100 billion," he said in Ukrainian, adding that some of the money had ended up in Western Europe while large amounts of cash had gone eastwards to Russia.

    From Russia, Yanukovich, has denied having bank accounts or property abroad, though the European Union and United States have ordered his assets to be frozen.

    The prosecutor declined to name any Western banks involved in the suspect transactions.

    Makhnitsky was appointed by parliament during the overthrow of Yanukovich and is a member of the nationalist and far-right Svoboda party. The location of the previous prosecutor, Viktor Pshonka, is unknown.

    A warrant has been issued for his arrest and the European Union has ordered his assets be frozen because he is under investigation in connection with the embezzlement of state funds and their transfer abroad. He could not be reached for comment.

    "MAFIA PRESIDENT"
    The $100 billion figure is equal to more than half the annual economic output of Ukraine in 2013. British officials declined to comment on the figure.

    Chronic corruption in all walks of life - from modest bribes on the street to the vast sums whispered by the former Cold War warriors of the Kremlin - has stoked anger and revolution across the republics of the former Soviet Union in recent years.

    As the Socialist superpower crumbled in 1991, a few thousand insiders gathered fortunes in the chaos while 250 million people were thrust into poverty.

    When asked to put a figure on how much money had left Ukraine since the fall of the Soviet Union, Makhnitsky said the sums were so huge that it would be impossible to give a figure.

    He said that Yanukovich and his people had spirited $32 billion dollars in cash across the border in trucks as his power crumbled early this year and that some of the money was now being used to fund separatists in eastern Ukraine.

    When questioned on the logistics of moving such a large amount, Makhnitsky said the information which investigators were checking was that trucks took the cash across the border.

    "Our operative information is that almost $32 billion in cash was taken to Russia in trucks," he said. "That money is being used to finance the separatist actions in the east of Ukraine."

    Ukraine, backed by the United States and European powers, accuses President Putin of stirring up a separatist campaign in the east of Ukraine. Moscow denies the charge.

    From Russia, Yanukovich has said that Ukraine is being run by neo-fascists, ultra-nationalists and gangsters. The former president is wanted in Ukraine for giving the direct order to crush Kiev protests against rule, a step that led to dozens of deaths in Kiev, Makhnitsky said.

    "Viktor Yanukovich is accused of grave criminal acts, among them premeditated homicide in aggravated circumstances of two or more people, namely participation in and the organization of killing of 75 people. According to the Ukrainian criminal code, the penalty for such crimes is life imprisonment."

    The 63-year-old insisted during appearances in Russia that he remains the legitimate president of Ukraine and has denied ordering snipers to shoot at protesters on Kiev's Maidan square.

    "OLIGARCH HAVEN"
    Makhnitsky said that Ukraine had become a haven for the wealthy tycoons who became known as oligarchs because of their reputation for pulling the levers of political power from Vladivostok on the Pacific to Ukraine's border with Poland.

    "They were able to steal from Ukraine, steal from the nation, enrich themselves, they had no motivation whatsoever to keep the funds in Ukraine."

    When asked whether the Ukrainian authorities were looking at the affairs of the country's richest businessmen some of whom had close ties to Yanukovich, he said:

    "We are checking, we are investigating everyone now. And it is not only the prosecutor's office, it is also financial monitoring institutions and the tax authorities," he said.

    "If there is any evidence of criminality, we will take measures to bring the assets back" to Ukraine.

    Makhnitsky declined to give the names of those Ukrainian structures he was investigating.

    (Writing by Guy Faulconbridge; editing by Anna Willard)
     
  13. Dolours

    Dolours Guest

    Given their history, it's hard to blame them for hating Russia. I would be reluctant to paint them all as nazis. I expect the majority are genuine patriots. Neither would I be quick to accuse them of being anti-Christian. Many are Catholics just like us and Catholics in that part of the world have reason to be wary of the Russian Orthodox. Like all conflicts, the whole truth won't be known for a very long time and very likely there are good and bad people on both sides. The Ukrainians are unfortunate that two superpowers have chosen to fight yet another proxy war on their territory. God help them.
     
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  14. jackzokay

    jackzokay Powers

    Thank you for your kind words, Carol. May God bless us all..

    You make many points. I am not that familiar with the Russian and Ukraine issues. But awhile back I watched some great interviews on YouTube that Putin gave. He came across as articulate and progressive. I was surprised to be honest, for he gave the impression of a man wanting to do business with his counterparts. These are well, well worth a watch.

    I can however explain my position regarding my decision to relinquish my Irish identity: it is not that I stand with britain or that i have embraced the British identity, no - absolutely not; it is a protest at my country's surrender to apathy, to atheism, and to how we have allowed our Christian identity to slip softly away like a small unnoticed boat onto a calm lake.
    We didn't even put up a fight!
    When i think of the great Irish priests and saints down the years that would say mass and risk their lives to do so... it makes me sad.
    The pews are virtually empty now at Sunday mass. Sometimes i count the few people that attend mass on sunday morning; and I am always surprised by the little number. I tell my children that when I was young, if I was a minute late (even if I was on time, i didn't get a seat - and there were twice as many masses said then).

    The irish politicians are meeting soon to make their big move, their big play - their big assault on our babies. I fear the worst.

    And I fear also that the almighty may not allow it to go unpunished.

    You'e right Carol, the Brits have already accepted all the wares of Babylon. But their country suffers. I read somewhete that the Englishman will likely be a minority in his own country by 2060, such is the extent of immigration. Poverty and murder and pollution and hardened hearts and greed exist there in abundance. They have many, many ills...

    We here in Ireland have embarked upon the same road. And i believe that unless good people speak out, things will not change. We pray, yes. We say our daily rosary together as a family.
    But you know what, I think we need action too.
    But what to do?
    What else can an individual do to protest? To try and help his countrymen; his friends, his work colleagues - even members of his own family see how encompassingly abhorrent the slaughter of the innocents is?
    I wish there was something more I could do.
    My friends, the innocents are to be butchered by the irish - and people just don't care.
    Well, i say this: not in my name.
     
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  15. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    One question that has never been asked by the Putin lovers, is how did Putin become the richest man in the world? I am sure they will say he plans on giving it all over to the Church now that he is a faithful Orthodox man. :confused:

    By David Z. Morris
    July 29, 2017
    Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos made waves this week when he briefly unseated Bill Gates as the wealthiest person in the world, according to Bloomberg’s tracker. The two U.S. tech titans are jockeying for the lead at around $90 billion each. But according to Hermitage Capital Management CEO Bill Browder, they’re nothing compared to Russian President Vladimir Putin, whose personal fortune Browder “believes” to be $200 billion.

    Browder, who made the claim before the Senate Judiciary Committee on Thursday, is one of the best authorities on Putin’s business dealings. Browder was a major investor in Russia during the chaotic 1990s, when, according to Newsweek, he took stakes in former state-run enterprises such as Gazprom. During the same period, Browder cooperated with Putin in anticorruption efforts, but eventually found himself targeted by Putin. That conflict eventually led to the jailing and death of Russian lawyer Sergei Magnitsky, and in turn to the Magnitsky Act sanctions against certain Russian oligarchs by the U.S.

    According to Browder’s testimony, Putin amassed his vast wealth by using political clout to coerce Russians who made similar investments to simply hand over large chunks of their holdings to him. Browder further claims Putin has a personal interest in reversing the Magnitsky Act, since many of those impacted by it “hold [Putin’s] money for him.” According to Browder, that includes some in U.S. institutions that is frozen or at risk of seizure.

    One Putin effort to push back against the Magnitsky Act was the 2012 imposition of restrictions on Russian adoptions to the U.S. Those adoptions —and, by extension, the Magnitsky sanctions—were the reported topic of various conversations between Russian representatives and the Trump administration. If Browder’s claims are accurate, then, Russia’s interference in the U.S. election may have had as much to do with defending Vladimir Putin’s vast personal wealth as with advancing Russian state interests.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  16. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    If they are hating Orthodox Russia for Soviet rule they are targeting the wrong group of people. Orthodox Russians and legitimate Russian authorities (the Czar Romanov and his family) were the first victims in the 1917 overthrow of their country by the ancestors of the very same Neocons who violently overthrew Ukraine using the same “color revolution” and “protest” tactics they got away with in 1917. Vladimir Putin and his loyalists rule Russia in the vein of Romanov, have restored Russia to her Christian heritage and form of government, and have kicked the foreign oligarchs and foreign agents out just when they thought that Russian state assets were up for sale after the fall of the Berlin Wall. This should make any Christian proud.

    As for the Catholics in Ukraine having reason to be wary of the Russian Orthodox, this is not true. Relations between the Orthodox and Catholic Church have never been better. Perhaps this is why Satan sought division and destruction in Ukraine which was implemented via his servants in the Lodge. The fact that some Catholic authorities in Ukraine have sided with the new, neo-Nazi Junta is not a surprise. Perhaps it was done thru fear or for other less noble reasons, but such a similar dynamic was at play in Spain during Franco’s regime.
     
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  17. Richard67

    Richard67 Powers

    Bill Browder is a liar and a criminal and one of the most wanted men in Russia, along with George Soros.
     
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  18. Fatima

    Fatima Powers

    I suppose all the other sources that you can google are all liars as well. There are dozens of articles, pick which one you want.
     
  19. Carol55

    Carol55 Ave Maria

    jackzokay, Thank you for the kind words also and I will continue to pray for you, for Ireland and for the world.

    My main point is to continue what you have been doing, praying the rosary and I will do the same.

    We all need to pray for a renewal of the Faith, to pray for peace and to pray for the many people in world who are suffering. Also, to pray for all of the leaders of the world and the whole world that they we experience a divine revelation if it is God's will.
     
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  20. jackzokay

    jackzokay Powers

    I just watched Jar Head this evening. Quite a movie if you can excuse the bad language etc., it gives great insight into the life of the ordinary marine who has to go into battle on behalf of these politicians - politicians on every side, who talk of war.
     
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