Who is the greater Saint? So...during church today, I was contemplating many things. What was the positive of Vatican 2 and what was the negative. I also contemplated what great damage that was caused by our sisters leaving the vocation of teaching and entering into the world of social justice. Generations of children loosing the true precepts of faith. My sister has avoided teaching her children about the faith. I think, she thinks, their ignorance is a safer path. Many here, including myself, believe in all the tenets of our faith. We are believers of Gods mercy but also understand the realities of hell. So the question is...what is worse? Who does God allow to heaven? The children that were never given the gift of faith...but try to live good lives. Or The true believers, who understand the tenets of faith and believe God is real. But sin anyway. Just a thought. Brother al
That is a good question fallen saint. The Apostles said to Jesus, who can be saved, because they wondered if anyone could be found worthy of entering Heaven; and Jesus assured them for men it is impossible, but for God it is possible. I do believe it is necessary to teach children the basics at least, otherwise how are they going to know right from wrong. How are they going to make morally right choices based on the Judo Christian principals. And pass the civilisation on to the next generations. Biblical directions, laws and principals are God given and what makes civilisation possible. IMHO I know nice kind good people who once would have identified their values with being Christian. But now I fear they think their niceness and goodness is natural to them. And they must presume they do not need Faith to be nice and good. Because Faith is not on the radar anymore for a lot of people. I think nice works until misfortune hits, then everything falls apart if Faith is not there to fall back on.
"The servant who knows what his master wants, but has got nothing ready and done nothing in accord with those wishes, will be given a great many strokes of the lash. The one who did not know, but has acted in such a way that he deserves a beating, will be given fewer strokes. When someone is given a great deal, a great deal will be demanded of that person; when someone is entrusted with a great deal, of that person even more will be expected." Luke 12:48 Seems very clear here...however, if in this world of confusion that we live in, where right is wrong and wrong is right are we still to be held accountable? We are confused as to what the master wants? But does not God place a moral compass within our hearts to seek out the truth? So I think that is the direction we must take. Are we continuously seeking out what God wants us to do or are we being complacent and taking the easy road. I think that is where a lot of the sin lies
My sister has avoided teaching her children about the faith. I think, she thinks, their ignorance is a safer path. Most of my in-laws claim ignorance as an excuse for their bad behavior and sinful ways when you call them out on it. However, the problem is, they do not seek to correct themselves even after being called out on it. Way too easy to say "I didn't know" than to change your behaviors. I find it truly amazing though, if one was to tell us that someone hid a million dollars in our back yard who would not in their right mind spend days trying to find it, but when we are told that the way to heaven is through what the church teaches, can't spend even an hour on Sunday seeking it out.
Catholic parents who fail to educate their children in the faith will struggle to get to heaven. A most basic duty of any parent is to educate their children in the faith. Its the whole point of marriage. It is a grave sin to neglect this education.
Brother al, Great post. Vatican II has both its good points and its bad points imho. I like the fact that the mass is said in the native language of each country/location. My parish offers all English masses and one in Spanish every Sunday. I don't like the fact that a lot of the reverence has been lost in the past 50 years, our society greatly encouraged this imho. I truly believe that we will all experience the Illumination of Conscience in the near future so ignorance will be eliminated, imho. Mac made a very good point.
Carol, I wonder why you believe the Illumination of Conscience is in the near future. I wished it was........
When one dies, one will see all the sins one has done, what those sins have caused and the worlds sins. If we are lucky...we will see all the good. But I am a believer...God will give the gift of Illumination of Conscious in the final days. But it's not yet time. It must get much worse.
Those who get to heaven are those in a state of grace. Those who go to hell are not in a state of grace. There is a mystery in this because ultimately only God knows who is in a state of grace or not. There may be a few surprises in heaven.
So true Garabandal, Anyone who says they are 'living in a state of Grace' but are not 'doing' Gods Will, they can not be seen as living in God's Will! It is all in Our Lords Prayer! The Pater Noster Our Father, Who art in Heaven! Hallowed be Thy name! Thy Kingdom come! Thy will be Done on earth! As it is in Heaven! Give us this day our daily bread! and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us! and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. Amen!
So the generations who missed the' illumination of conscience ' just lucked out? And all those who died before it didnt need it?
Mac I know you know that in the early days of Christianity, believers in Jesus Christ were forced to face up to the gnostic religions. The true believers did not ignore them, but took the challenge positively and applied the terms used to defend the church and Christ himself. The clearest example of this is in the famous hymn to Christ in Saint Paul's letter to the Christians at Colossae: “He [Jesus] is the image of the unseen God and the first-born of all creation! For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth! Everything visible and everything invisible! Thrones, Dominations, Sovereignties, Powers– all things were created through him and for him! Before anything He was created, He existed, and He holds all things in unity! Now the Church is his body, He is its head. As He is the Beginning, He was first to be born from the dead, so that He should be first in every way; Because God wanted all perfection to be found in Him! And all things to be reconciled through Him and for Him, everything in heaven and everything on earth, when He made peace by his death on the cross” (Col 1: 15-20). What a beautiful hymn of St Paul in our scriptures! We learn that nothing else is greater! No new revelation nor any convoluted/contorted meaning could be added to this! As St Paul says............ Jesus saved us once and for all! Alleluia !
Jesus has given us numerous parables and actual instances where a terrible,terrible person can be given the gift of eternal life. For example the thief who was crucified with him. He probably led a life of crime and yet received an instantaneous reward of Heaven because he had a contrite heart. What lies in our heart is a very powerful weapon. Do we use it for good or evil, for the good of mankind or selfishness?
Part One: With a Despairing Soul Meditation: Jesus: O soul steeped in darkness, . . . Come and confide in your God, who is love and mercy. — But the soul, deaf even to this appeal, wraps itself in darkness. Jesus calls out again: My child, listen to the voice of your merciful Father. — In the soul arises this reply: “For me there is no mercy,” and it falls into greater darkness. . . . Jesus calls to the soul a third time, but the soul remains deaf and blind, hardened and despairing. Then the mercy of God begins to exert itself, and, without any co-operation from the soul, God grants it final grace. . . . The soul knows that this, for her, is final grace and, should it show even a flicker of good will, the mercy of God will accomplish the rest. My omnipotent mercy is active here. Happy the soul that takes advantage of this grace (Diary, 1486). My Prayer Response: Lord Jesus, Your all-powerful mercy is active in the despairing soul. Continue to give it graces. *Diary passages with bolded words are Jesus speaking I think this is what may take place when someone is dying as Jesus would like to give that soul one last chance.
Julia, I am not certain but I feel that it is. fallen saint, I think that we were told that it will get worse quickly. Keep watching the events in the Middle East, many unapproved seers seem to state that it will radiate from there. We know from scripture that there will be a war in the Middle East at some point and things appear to be escalating there but only God knows. _____________________________________________ We know that, "he will come again to judge the living and the dead". Saint Faustina, who is a proposed Doctor of the Church, said that Jesus stated, "Before I come as the just Judge, I will come first as the King of Mercy". 2 Timothy 4:1 (DRA) I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: Jesus will only come once in his glorified body at Eschaton but I believe that he will come in spirit before Eschaton as Saint Faustina told us. He will come as the King of Mercy in the form of a cross in the sky, even though it is not referred to as a judgment at this time I believe that this could be the judgment of the living. If you read Revelation 20 this scripture is really speaking of a judgment of the dead, so I believe that due to the final chastisement everyone will die at the end probably at the hands of the Antichrist or in the crossfire of his and his followers' destruction from God. https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=DRA&quicksearch=judg&begin=73&end=73&limit=500 Mac, If this is God's plan who are we to question it? Why would anyone think that they will be alive when Christ returns, for instance? Why would anyone be spared from death? I don't think that anyone will be spared from death.
Well Christ will reconcile all things to Himself However He will bring that about Also Death is the last thing He will overcome if I remember my Scripture correctly
All is grace - gratuitous grace - no one and no generation deserves the illumination -- God's grace is a free gift to give in His time and within His Providence. Diary of St Faustina Before I come as the just Judge, I am coming first as the King of Mercy. Before the day of justice arrives, there will be given to people a sign in the heavens of this sort: All light in the heavens will be extinguished, and there will be great darkness over the whole earth. Then the sign of the cross will be seen in the sky, and from the openings where the hands and the feet of the Savior were nailed will come forth great lights which will light up the earth for a period of time. This will take place shortly before the last day (Diary, 83).
You give only two examples: one of adults who believe in all the tenets of the faith; the other of children who have not been taught the faith and then as adults try to live good lives. Your implication is that invincible ignorance excuses any failings on the part of the adults who were not raised in the faith but try to lead good lives. How can you be sure that invincible ignorance applies to the people you describe? Couldn't invincible ignorance more properly be applied to people living in some remote place where it is impossible to have heard about God or the faith and impossible for them to learn about Jesus who is the way, the truth and the life and who told us that nobody can come to the Father except through him? Certainly all those of us who were blessed with parents or teachers who passed on the faith will be held to far, far higher standards than those who weren't equally blessed. Nevertheless, I wouldn't be so confident of your inference that adults who were denied knowledge of the faith as children will be saved because they tried to live good lives despite never bothering to learn about God. I think that you are presupposing that God didn't give them the grace to seek and find Him rather than acknowledging the very real possibility that they ignored that grace. God is just and merciful but He isn't stupid or a pushover.
garabandal One parable in the bible that supports the above is that of the workers that only worked a few hours getting the same daily wage as those working all day long. Each worker was given their just wage. God Bless
